High Fat

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #23

[quote=“Martin_Arnold, post:22, topic:10524”]
If that is incorrect then by all means cite a source. [/quote]

There are several “sources” cited above, heh

It sounds as if you want a source that names Phinney, in particular, of being wrong. Lol

(Nick) #24

Phinney is a brilliant man, but he’s never called himself infallible. It’s possible he’s correct here; but it’s also possible that his recommendations represent the last pull of Planet CICO whose orbit even he was unable utterly to escape.

(Martin Arnold) #25

I’m not saying he’s correct. I’m asking to see proof that he isn’t. If that proof is unavailable then i see no reason to dispute his work.

(Martin Arnold) #26

I don’t seewhich of those sources addresses this specific question, could you show me that?

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #27

https://www.google.com/search?q=pre-absorptive+cephalic+phase+of+insulin+secretion

Not sure how else to help you kiddo.

Maybe you asked the wrong question?

(Nick) #28

That’s not how science works. You don’t have to prove the novel hypothesis is wrong in order it be rejected. You have to prove it right in order that it be accepted.

So where is Phinney’s evidence?

(eat more) #29

this thread is stressing me out :joy:

i can’t figure out the end goal/actual question…

is it to prove/disprove that reducing dietary fat will increase body fat loss?
is it to prove/disprove that fat does/doesn’t increase insulin?

i’m truly not trying to be flip or dense…
do Phinney and Volek have citations as to why they believe that reduction in dietary fat before goal is necessary?
if not isn’t that just making claims based on beliefs without evidence?
(obviously i am not Phinney/Volek educated…i’ve tried multiple times but their website is horrifically out of date)

again…i am not trying to be a jerk…this thread just doesn’t make sense LOL

(Martin Arnold) #30

I’m not seeing where in those articles it addresses the question of fat, and every other keto source makes the claim that fat does not raise insulin. That’s why i asked. But the broader question is regarding how much dietary fat should be consumed while losing weight.

(Martin Arnold) #31

As you lose weight, you increase your dietary fats

(eat more) #32

ok…so then where is the question?

maybe you are reading too much into the “reduce dietary fat” …reduce dietary fat from what?

so we’ll just say that it is a given that the more body fat you have on your body the less you need to put in your mouth…(although this is and has been tested by folks at goal and not at goal)

if you can only use 31.5 calories per pound of stored body fat you can figure starting dietary fat numbers…(once fat adapted) and adjust for your own n=1

right?

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #33

Tell you what @Martin_Arnold

If you are ok with eating low fat on keto because you believe you’ll lose weight? Go for it.

Highly depends on the individual, their metabolic state, and their goals.

Believing there is an exact chart somewhere or exact magical numbers is as flawed as the BMI chart premise.
Even the “keto calculators” such as ankerl should be considered only loosely.
You’re looking for an exact UNIVERSAL answer or chart of exactly how much fat to eat (x) to achieve everyone’s weight goal (y), and there isn’t one.
X =/= Y and never will.

KCKO and relax. Life is meant to be enjoyed, not meant to be a hangry fat phobic struggle.

(Martin Arnold) #34

Of your total fat intake, the chart is saying only 20%, initially, should come from what you eat. The rest is from the body’s own stores. As you lose weight you increase your intake.

Now, if Phinney is wrong about that I’d love to see the evidence.

It stands to reason that if you are overweight and go into keto eating 200g fat a day, you are hardly going to lose weight. I’m not saying CICO is correct, but it’s not entirely without merit.

(eat more) #35

it actually says 25% and if reading the chart correctly that is with a person at 50% body fat…

a person could feasibly start at 200g of fat a day until fat adapted…and then the body naturally sorts out how much supplemental fat it actually needs.
the minute you begin following a ketogenic way of eating you are not automagically fat adapted…using existing body fat for fuel.

it seems that you are the only one arguing this LOL

access to 31.5 calories per pound of stored body fat once fat adapted

(Richard Morris) #36

He doesn’t say to restrict fat. He said multiple times in his last presentations “eat fat to satiety”, and underlined it next sentence by saying “don’t leave the table hungry”. This was a presentation that I attended in Sydney, but the Melbourne one was recorded.

[The first 5 mins of part 2 are what you are looking for]

He explains that people spontaneously limit their caloric intake as their insulin drops, and they can burn fat so body fat contributes to the source of that fat … ergo they don’t need to eat as much. It’s not calorie counting, it is a result of eating to satiety and having access to body fat which changes over time.

As they progress through the diet they will eventually have less contribution from body fat and if they eat fat to satiety they will spontaneously eat more fat.

What you are describing is an effect, not a cause. You spontaneously eat less fat, as your body fat is able to contribute less (because you have lost all the weight, or your basal insulin has risen). You don’t eat less fat intentionally in order to reduce your body fat.

If your fasting insulin is still quite high then that reduction of body fats contribution will occur earlier. If your fasting insulin is quite low then that will happen at a lower body weight.

In that Chart Dr Phinney is explaining how the amount of fat you burn stays the same but where your get it from, and how much you have to eat changes as your body fat alters it’s contribution. Ultimately he says “The Primary driver here is satiety”

Dr Phinney also made an interesting comment about ideal body weight that I found charming and well worth repeating …

I never tell anyone who asks me what they should weigh. 'Cos I don’t know. If you want my secret to the right goal - It’s the weight you can get to without too much of a struggle, and where you get there still have a life. And you have to find that out for yourself.

So if you want to lose 120 lbs and you only lose 100 lbs, then it may be that that is the weight your body is able to get to given it’s insulin load … and there are 2 ways to get lower. You can try restricting calories before satiation - going hungry and see if your body will respond to a deficit (ie: you have low fasted insulin).

Or maybe your body is OK only having lost 100 lbs and you can keep calm and keto on and less exposure to insulin over time may reduce fasting insulin. The worst case scenario here is in 10 years you won’t have any fat cells (fat cells turn over in around 10 years) that remember being deranged, so there is a good chance your insulin will be a lot lower.

(Martin Arnold) #37

keto adaptation doesn’t mean simply burning body fat. That happens anyway, according to Dr Phinney. Adaptation simply means becoming better at doing it. You burn fat because you aren’t eating carbs and aren’t eating a lot of dietary fat.

I’m not arguing anything, I’m asking questions. Again, if Dr Phinney is incorrect about this by all means show me. It may be an appeal to authority but he is, i suspect, better versed in how this works than either of us.

(Martin Arnold) #38

Right, you eat to be sated. That isn’t at odds with the chart above, nor I suspect would Phinney see it that way given he authored it as well.

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #39

Heh.
Yes. To satiety.

(Richard Morris) #40

No but the common interpretation of that chart is that you must restrict dietary fat to lose weight, add dietary fat to stop losing weight.

However a more accurate interpretation is that as you eat to satiety, your plate fat changes as your body fat releases more or less energy.

(Martin Arnold) #41

And satiety is never going to be 200g of fat at that stage.

Also the sstatement ‘eat fat to satiety’ simply means don’t leave the table hungry. I don’t think it’s meant to be taken literally - how would you know how much fat to eat when preparing your meal? Can you measure it?

(Martin Arnold) #42

I think we’re talking past each other here because he’s saying the same thing by suggesting that you naturally regulate your fat intake as your weight moderates. But the chart is also saying that you don’t start off by eating a whopping great plate of fat.