Usually I read that keto is high in fat, moderate-to-low in protein, and low-to-very-low in carbs.
However, some people, for example the “carnivores”, do a high protein keto diet.
I would like to understand this issue better, especially since I am now in a clearly high protein keto diet (I am using Therascience products, and before I used Pronokal, which are identical: prepared products very high in protein), and for me it works.
In fact, I have never tried the typical high fat keto diet. The only thing I can say is that for me, high protein works well to reduce my hunger.
Is there some explanation of the differences between a high fat and a high protein keto diet?
I don’t consider keto to be a high protein or high fat diet. A lot of the keto calculators use the standard formulas to allocate an adequate amount of protein.
In fact, I eat far fewer carbs and fewer proteins and fewer fats now than I did before keto.
To me, keto is: “Minimal carbs. Adequate proteins. Fats as needed (for satiety).”
I eat mainly carnivore my macros are usually something like 70-75% fat 29-24% protein and around 1% carb (cream in coffee mainly). Is that “high protein” or “high fat” the only times it goes out of that range is if I have chicken or fish (once a week maybe).
There’s two ways to look at the terms “high fat” and “high protein”, in grams per day or as percentage of calories. The macro percentage will look higher in fat because fat has more calories per gram. Even carnivore proponents eat more fat than protein as a percentage of calories in their regular diet by eating fatty cuts of meat. The usual starting point is around 1:1 in grams. Super high protein runs into a limit of how much ammonia your body can clear, and that is different from person to person.
As for an explanation why some people prefer more or less protein, it has to do with satiety signals and metabolic health. Someone on the IR - T2D spectrum will have a different response to protein than a healthy person. Fat alters hormonal response to food the least. This may change over time as they heal their metabolism or not, depending on the individual.
Before keto, I was ravenously hungry all the time. No more.
In nearly five decades of trying to lose weight, I’ve never lasted longer than six months on any other diet. And only that long because of appetite suppressants. Ones now banned by the FDA. Feelings of deprivation led to cheats, cheats led to binges, and binges led back to old eating habits.
I’ve been on keto now for well over two years.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#11
In my view, Carol and Ogre have it right. Even on carnivore, it doesn’t need to be high protein, and the advice is to eat to satiety. Of course, just as “low carb” means something different to us than to the rest of the world (which considers 200 g/day to be “low carb”), I suspect that the meaning of “high protein” varies in context, as well.
The other point to add, perhaps, is that people on these forums seem to vary quite a bit in whether it is protein or fat that is most satisfying to them. I suspect that anyone attempting either keto or full-bore carnivore might profit from a bit of experimentation with what works best for them.
My doctor explained me a bit more about the keto diet that is designing to me: it is “relatively high in protein”, meaning that the amount of protein is the normal one for a normal person in a normal-not-diet situation, while both carbs and fats are low or very low.
The amount of calories I am taking per day is quite low (about 540kcal with the product, plus two dishes of vegetables).
But I am not hungry, and I am reducing weight quite a lot (5.6kg during the first week).
I see in this forum this type of keto diet is not much followed. As described in other comments in this post, most people eat quite a lot of fat in a keto diet.
Is there anywhere where I can read more about high protein keto diet? Do they make sense?
Does your doctor have you doing a ‘protein-sparing modified fast’ perhaps? There is plenty of info available on the upsides/downsides to that approach. As I understand it it’s not supposed to be used long term but more often as a kick start to weight loss.
I started with high fat, and now I eat a lower fat, higher protein diet. Not all the time (still eat some bacon every once in a while, still eat higher fat meals at times), but most of the time. For instance, if I’m still hungry after dinner, I will have (low carb and low fat) ham instead of pepperoni. I’ll eat London broil/top round (very lean) or shrimp or mussels. And I won’t add any fat to them.
I don’t try to eat lower calorie, though. I just do because protein is satiating, and I also fast quite a bit.
I had never heard the name “protein-sparing modified fast” before, but clearly this is what I am doing.
Yes, I know it is not to be used long-term. This diet is a combination of low-carb and low-calorie diet. Pro: it works in loss reduction. Con: unless very careful, there is weight recovery. Trick: continue seeing the doctor after the stable phase for years, for recurring checks.
Yes. I think this is exactly right. I’ve probably got a 'lower protein" reputation on these forums but I’m not actually anti protein and think that it’s a vital nutrient that I’d rather overdo a bit than underdo. I was listening to a protein expert on a podcast yesterday who said that the average protein consumption among women on the SAD was 60 grams. I’m well over that and I’m a pretty small woman.
I think again that I probably have this reputation but I’d like to qualify it because it doesn’t exactly describe what I’m experiencing.
It’s not so much that fat is so satiating but that excess protein leads to anti-satiation. It ends up making me very hungry both in the few hours post the big protein meal (not just hungry here either, actually hangry and cravey) and then to a lesser extent in the following 12 hrs. Since I’m bad at not eating when I’m starving this leads to weight gains.
So to avoid this I must consume my protein with a lot of fat. It’s really not at all that I find the fat itself so very satiating but that the high fat/moderate protein combo is the most satiating. I actually do not find things like fat bombs or veg loaded with butter and cheeses any better than a lean meat. They all will leave me hungry much faster than a very fatty cut of meat.
Secondly, I think the form the fat is in matters a great deal. I don’t get the same satiating effect from any pure fat as I do from fat still bound in the protein structure of meat. So oils, butter, lard and tallow will not work (and too much will nauseate me anyhow) anywhere near as well as the fat off an untrimmed ribeye or just lightly cooked beef fat trimmings.
I was surprised to hear both Ted Naiman and Paul Saladino making a similar point on a recent podcast. It wasn’t a big surprise from Saladino since he’s a die hard carnivore but Ted Naiman is not. However, his current recommendation is that every oil and even butter are foods a person trying to lose fat should avoid and that all fat intake should come from unrendered meat fat with its protein structures and associated nutrients intact.
I’m not advising this myself. I just thought it was interesting that my own finding for what has worked best for me is actually in line with what these guys are instructing their patients and not completely out there.
Oh, I’m glad you replied. It reminded me that I had meant to address your original post.
Not all carnivores do a high protein diet. In fact a large subset do not. I’m one actually. I keep my carnivore eating highly ketogenic and eat significantly more grams of fat than grams of protein. I’m not much for counting but I’m generally in the 75-82% calories from fat when I have counted with my protein averaging 75 grams.
For me everything just feels better when I eat this way and I don’t tend to overeat.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#20
I’ve read that in others of your posts. It’s a fascinating reaction, and I’d love to know why it happens for you. Thaks for mentioning that, and for your other remarks in this thread. We sometimes forget that individual variability always needs to be taken into account.
Since you mention oils as a source of fat, I’m reminded of a throwaway comment that Dr. Phinney has made in several talks of his that I’ve watched: the people who find that they “can’t tolerate all that fat” are often consuming too much of seed oils rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids, and when they switch to sources of saturated and monounsaturated fats (the solid cooking fats and—as you mention—the fat that comes with the meat), they are usually fine. I just thought I’d mention this for the sake of any newbies who happen to be following this thread. Again, though, here as elsewhere, everyone’s mileage (kilometrage?) is sure to vary.
