High fat, low protein foods

(Ryan Carr) #1

Hi all

I started Keto today and have been tracking my marcos. I have found that I have exceeded my protein allowance by 35g but I still need 35g of fat.

Is there any high fat snacks to take me over?

What is the best way to get more fat than protein?

High fat/Low protein food options
(Robert C) #2

Arugula or spinach sauteed in butter.
Leafy greens under a generous amount of olive oil based dressing.
Butter in your coffee.

#3

Too much protein is not a practical concern. It’s the only macro that is a lower limit that needs to be reached. Too little protein is not a good thing.

The fat macro is a guesstimate of how much fat your body needs. Some of it can come from stored body fat instead of being eaten. If your goal is to lose weight, that is the preferred source.

Fat should be eaten to satisfy hunger. No more than that is needed.

My two related keto mantras:

  • “Minimal carbs. Adequate protein. Fat to satiety.”
  • “Eat when hungry. Stop when full. Mostly meat.”
#4

There are indications that too much protein really can be a problem (raises insulin, is associated with some other sicknesses, etc). If nothing else, it’s not particularly helpful to get significantly more protein than you can use.

It also is less satiating in general, so that speaks to your own two rules, since you’ll end up eating more protein to get to satiety than you would eat fat.

(Carl Keller) #5

Protein gets a bad rap in much of the keto community by a lot of experts. The subject of debate among PHDs is the answer to how much. Jason Fung says .6 grams per kg of total body weight (to his obese patients) while Ben Bikman says 1-2 grams per kg of total body weight. For me, that ranges from 60 grams to 160 grams and is an enormous difference in opinion.

Given my above paragraph, I ate protein and fat to satiety and usually ate 100-160 grams of each per day without injurous effect and lost 35 pounds in five months
 so I tend to favor Ben Bikman’s suggestion. I don’t believe you can overeat protein unless your satiety signal is broken or if you ignore it.

#6

I guess it would depend on the definition of “significantly”? 20% more? 100% more? 500% more?

My initial protein macro was set at 90 grams. I often supplemented with zero carb protein powder. I later upped the macro to 120 grams because proteins were one of the few blood work items out of kilter. I just had blood drawn again this morning, so I’ll have to see if that helped.

But if more protein raises the insulin secretion without a corresponding increase in blood sugar, wouldn’t I end up with a much lower blood sugar?

I have the same issue with those that claim artificial sweeteners or “just thinking about food” increases insulin level. Since neither of those things raise blood sugar, an increase in insulin should end up lowering blood sugar.

So why did I even need to buy vials of insulin for my T2 diabetes? I should have been thinking about food, drinking zero calorie drinks with artificial sweeteners, and eating a lot of protein. :slight_smile:

(Ryan Carr) #7

Thanks for all the responses guys. If I stick to the 1-2grams per kg I am still slightly under that.

I will continue to monitor these.

#8

Yes, there is disagreement among experts on this, which from the outside appears to be a combination of usual disagreement among experts on something that needs more research, and a matter of looking at different contexts and addressing different issues.

Since we had no other information to go on than simply someone concerned they had extra protein, I was pointing out that there are reasons someone may be concerned and it’s not simply an impractical concern (at least not in all situations and given the current knowledge base and breadth of expert opinions).

You’re last paragraph shows two of the problems: in a particular context for a particular reason, eating a certain amount of protein isn’t a big deal. The same can be said of carbs, or even cyanide (though the amounts and contexts are wildly different on those). We didn’t have the information from the OP who was really just seeking a specific answer (which “don’t worry about protein” didn’t answer), to tell if his context and amounts fit a similar category. Additionally “unless your satiety signal is broken or if you ignore it” is a a very possible issue, which, again, we have no idea what’s going on for OP.

There are reasons for concern, and if nothing else eating the extra protein than necessary to maintain nutrients doesn’t seem to give any benefit even for those that seem like they can use it the most (body builders). Ketogains has a decent and balanced take on this to add to the list of names:

#9

90-120g of protein isn’t all that much to me. But like I mentioned in the other reply we don’t know OP’s situation. He only said he had “35g extra” and we don’t know anything else he’s doing to get to that calculation. He could be doing 200-300g of protein for all we know.

As for the other questions about blood sugar: It’s a complicated system, and over time it seems a functioning pancreas should allow everything to net balance out over time, with spikes in certain hormones causing spikes in others and drops in a cycle. For some those spikes, even if overall they balance out, could be a concern, depending on their context (I wouldn’t risk it if I was doing keto for epilepsy treatment, for instance, even if it probably wouldn’t trigger a seizure most the time).

The other problem is it’s a complicated system. In fact, it does raise blood sugar in many individuals (possibly this is the normal reaction and seems to create a known problem for T1 diabetics).

I have the same issue with those that claim artificial sweeteners or “just thinking about food” increases insulin level. Since neither of those things raise blood sugar, an increase in insulin should end up lowering blood sugar.

That appears to be irrelevant to the current discussion.

(Marianne) #10

I love bulletproof coffee and look forward to it. Before I started and learned what it was, the idea of it skeeved me, but I thought I’d give it a try. I think it is delicious and it helps with the fat macro and holds me until lunch.

#11

Unless you’re eating lean meat or protein powders, there’s no reason why your protein calories should outnumber your fat calories, considering fat has 9 calories per gram versus protein’s 4.

(Carl Keller) #12

:roll_eyes:

Is it not fair and honest to offer an answer that puts the OP at ease for believing they ate too much protein even if it’s doesn’t (in a court of law manner) answer their question directly?

Which is exactly why I included what you quoted
 in case the OP has leptin resistance, which is pretty rare. Nonetheless it’s possible so I made sure there was an escape clause. I feel like you would have picked on that statement whether I included that phrase or not. :stuck_out_tongue:

IMO, nutrients without satiety is meaningless in a healthy scenario. A healthy metabolism is the foundation of good health and if you are always hungry and not eating enough, you are bound to suffer. Protein is what fills us up and I stand by the idea of eating it along with fat to satisfy hunger. The benefit of not being hungry is enormous and if we can learn how to understand our hunger and respond appropriately to it, we’ve probably learned one of the greatest lessons we can learn about ourselves. For once in my life I have control of what and when I eat and I have never felt better.

BTW, I think the ketogains article made a fair assessment of protein. It pretty much says what I was trying to get the OP to understand. The main difference is that it sets a limit for what amount might be most beneficial while I believe that satiety should set the limit. For me, satiety fell well between the .8 to 1.2g per kg of lean mass they suggest. I fully agree that eating too much protein is not beneficial but I don’t believe people should eat to a specific number because we are individuals and macros are not stretch pants
 one size does not fit all

(KCKO, KCFO đŸ„„) #13

Let your body use some body fat for those few grams.

#14

No. Especially when you have no reason to believe that he should be put at ease on that particular point as you have no idea why he was concerned, and there are valid reasons for being concerned.

You including it shows you should know better than to advise people you know very little context on to ignore something they are currently concerned about, but also seemed to not take it seriously either. And yes, without that clause the statement would have been even worse and more obviously false.

This reinforces the point I was making that eating extra protein isn’t beneficial. Protein is what I was referring to as the ‘nutrient’ to be maintained, extra of which isn’t necessary.

To an extent, but fat for many people will do a better job at this than protein, and the OP was asking about replacing protein with fat (and at gram for gram replacement, he would very likely get a lot more satisfaction of hunger with how much more is packed into fat per gram). It certainly isn’t going to do a worse job at this.

This wasn’t about simply “don’t eat so much protein”. This was about replacing protein with fat, gram for gram even from how the OP wrote it (reducing protein 35g and adding 35g to fat).

Which has been my point, but included the fact that we don’t know what OPs situation is nor what he was even eating before and why he assessed he needed to reduce 35g of protein and increase 35g of fat, and telling him “don’t worry about protein” doesn’t even answer the question, and may be preventing him from doing something that is beneficial.

#15

To finally actually answer the question for OP and anyone else that might find this discussion:
There are several resources in the food section, but here’s a few ideas:

  • Add good amounts of butter to top off your meats
  • Pemmican
  • Cream Cheese
  • Peanut butter and heavy whipping cream (I have a vague how to on this somewhere around the forum)
  • Dark Chocolate (very dark, but be careful as even very dark chocolate can have a fair share of carbs)
  • Pork Rinds and Cream Cheese, or Bacon and Cream Cheese
  • Whole milk mozzarella cheese (Pollio String cheese now has this in stores near me, it’s about 50-50 gram for gram with protein and fat, but that’s better than a lot of foods).
  • “Fat bombs” (lots of different ones out there, I personally like some dark chocolate peanutbutter cups made with coconut oil).
(Carl Keller) #16

@djindy The overwheming majority of people who show concern (in the forum) about overeating the protein macro do so because of the alarming number of articles that suggest it might kick them out of ketosis and/or do them harm. My response was simply trying to reassure the OP that there is plenty of contrary advice as well as personal anecdotal evidence that says to not fear protein as long as you eat it to satiety. My honest opinion was given and I’m going to leave it at that. Thank you for yours but I’m done trying to rationalize this with you.

Have a nice day. :slight_smile:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #17

Keto in a nutshell: keep carbohydrate under 20 g/day, eat a reasonable amount of protein (listen to your body), eat fat to satiety (listen to your body).

If you keep your carbohydrate low, that’s 90% of this way of eating. The rest is to eat real food to satiety. That means only eating when hungry, stopping eating when no longer hungry, and not eating again until hungry again. Listen to your body.

We have an instinct about how much protein to eat, and fat should be there to replace the calories no longer coming from carbohydrate. We eat low-carb to keep our insulin down, and fat, with its minimal effect on insulin, is a safe source of calories. To know how much to eat, listen to your body.

On a low-carb diet, too much protein is not really a concern, unless you smell ammonia in your sweat or on your breath. But you’ll have a very hard time eating that much protein, especially if you listen to your body.

BTW, food percentages are calculated off total calories, and protein contains 4 cal/g, whereas fat contains 9 cal/g. This means that 100 g of protein + 100 g of fat = 31% protein and 69% fat, so “getting enough fat” is also hardly a concern.

ETA: if you eat 20 g/day or less of carbohydrate and listen to your body about how much protein and fat to eat, you won’t have to calculate macros or count calories.

#18

And the way you did so was both unhelpful for the topic and irresponsible considering you seem to know this is something with a wide variety of professional opinions on the matter and the matter does not seem to be settled, thus there really is reason for concern, and there may be a real problem. Often when looking into individual advice on either side, it’s contextual as well, and here we don’t know the context.

Less controversial is eating within a reasonable range.

All that said, simply “oh you can eat as much protein as you feel you want to eat” doesn’t work either, since if you don’t have enough fat with it you could die of rabbit starvation, which isn’t controversial.

(Carl Keller) #19

I never said that. :slight_smile:

I don’t mind debating an issue with someone but when I don’t care for the way in which the debater responds to me, I am well within my right to disengage. Frankly, condescending people are not worth my time and I’d rather spend my energy elsewhere.

This is my last response to you.

#20

You didn’t say that quote, which is why I didn’t have it in a quote block. You did advocate for eating protein to satiety, and started this with trying to counter my claims that protein could be a concern when someone else said protein is not a practical concern, and have consistnatly brushed off the idea that it may be a real concern, giving only satiety say over limiting protein (which is “as much protein as you feel you want to eat”, satiety is a point where you no longer feel you want to eat, you have had enough).

You are absolutely within your right, and I’m happy to see you stop. You haven’t exactly been pleasant either, and this isn’t sticking to the topic.

Let’s hope that’s true this time.