PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#21
I’d like to know what those conerns are, if you wouldn’t mind laying them out for us. The concerns about excess protein that were current when I joined these forums two years ago have pretty much been laid to rest, but if there are others, I’d like to know what they are, so I can deal with them. I didn’t see anything worth worrying about in the blog post you linked to, and the Bikman lecture Carl linked to has dealt with my concerns. So what remains are the concerns you referred to but didn’t list, which makes me nervous, since I like to know what we’re talking about.
In this context, do you feel that Dr. Naiman’s insistence on the protein leverage hypothesis is relevant? He is very clear that “too much protein is not even a thing” in the various talks and lectures of his that I’ve encountered on the Net.
I actually listed and mentioned several if you read further up in the thread, though certainly I didn’t go into great detail or list everything.
Some concerns are that some amount of excess protein beyond what is necessary for replenishing amino acids can or will be converted to glucose or body fat. I mentioned before as well, this may be controversial, but there are reliable people on both sides of this and reasons for believing this (Dr. Fung talked about this here, Dr. Phinney has mentioned this in several places including in the november podcast he was on here, where he also mentions too high of protein can lead to sicknesses (though he didn’t go into detail in that episode about which sicknesses).
Other concerns are that too much protein can have other insulin effects beyond what fat would, or otherwise surpress ketone production (again, Dr. Phinney indicates this in several places, other people that indicate this are Dr. Peter Attia who mentions “anything over about 50 grams of carbs and 150 grams of protein makes it difficult to generate sufficient ketones” here though it wasn’t clear what he was taking that from in that post which wasn’t about that topic, he also mentions the glucose conversion elsewhere as well within the last year.
Dr. Fung also mentions problems with extra protein during weight loss due to it preventing the use of now unnecessary proteins on the body, resulting in things like extra skin and such here.
There seems to be caps on the amount of energy you can get from protein, which is more limited than what you can get from fat (as Richard mentions and Phinney discusses in the above mentioned podcast).
There’s a problem if you simply use protein to satiety and think you can replace fat with protein without concern, you can end up with rabbit starvation due to missing essential fatty acids.
The final reason was also mentioned and is the take of the ketogains link and others: it’s simply not useful to get protein in excess of certain amounts.
Now, as I mentioned, there are people on different sides of this. None of it seems to be a settled, universally agreed upon matter (as is usually the case in many areas), and all of it can depend strongly on particular people and particular contexts (are you trying to eat 4K calories a day, or 1.5K? Are you loosing weight, maintaining, or gaining? Do you have high insulin sensitivity or moderate? Are you a Type 1 Diabetic, Type 2, nothing, something else? How well are your organs functioning? What’s the rest of your nutrition like? Etc.)
I’m not familiar with Dr. Naiman’s take on protein leverage hypothesis, but I’d assume it’s something like this one. As I understand it, there is certainly a minimum of protein we need, essential amino acids that need to be replenished, which is why I wasn’t advocating for getting rid of protein either. Protein is beneficial. As for whether people simply won’t eat more protein than they need, I’m doubtful on that and haven’t seen any indications to suggest that to be universally the case for everyone (again, context and individuals differ, and a bunch of Filipino women maintaining their protein levels doesn’t alter that understanding).
I have seen enough that makes me less worried about protein than some, but not enough to settle the matter and dismiss any possible concern for anyone about consuming excess protein (especially if I have no idea how much they are getting).
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#23
This, as I believe I already mentioned has now been shown to be a groundless fear. Gluconeogenesis is driven by demand, not by supply.
The primary danger of excessive protein intake is ammonia toxicity. It is extremely hard to achieve, and requires protein above and beyond the limits of satiety. There is a famous study of overfeeding in which one of the participants broke down and wept at the thought of having to eat yet anothe pork chop. He was nowherre near the limit for ammonia toxicity.
Fifty grams of carbohydrate is a fairly high intake, so it wouldn’t surprise me if, in someone fairly insulin resistant, that amount of carbohydrate was enough to spike insulin enough to halt ketogenesis. But in any case, lowered ketone production is hardly a danger to the body, however inconvenient it may be. Remember further that (a) fat-adaptation means that the muscles are no longer metabolizing ketones, so the ketone bodies produced in the liver are needed mostly to feed the brain and for hormonal signaling and gene-regulation purposes, and (b) serum ketone levels reflect unused ketones and provide no indication how the quantity actually being made and used.
While halting autophagy may also be an annoyance, it is by no means a danger to the body, so I wouldn’t consider it cause for alarm.
So in any case where the body found itself needing energy from protein (a last resort, considering how much energy metabolizing protein costs, and how little ATP the process yields), consuming extra protein would seem to be a good thing, not a concern. Since fat is so much more energy-dense than protein, you would have to eat 2.25 times as much protein as fat by weight (very hard to do, trust me) just in order to provide an equal number of calories from each.
Again, this I put under the heading of annoyance, not concern, since “not useful” is a quite different thing from “dangerous.”
Thank you very much for laying all this out for me. I find this post of yours quite reassuring, because these are all matters I’ve already considered, and they are not concerns from my point of view, so I guess I can rest easy. I appreciate your taking the time to go into detail. Again, many thanks.
It has not been shown to be groundless at all. As far as I can see it is a debated point. I happen to agree with the idea that gluconeogenesis is based on demand, at least to an extent, but I don’t see anything that I believe settles the matter. Thus, I believe it is remains a reasonable for someone to be concerned about it if they have been less convinced on the matter. Clearly, several of the leading researchers in the area are not yet convinced that excess protein may still convert to glucose beyond what is needed for the minimum use by the brain (for that matter, when we say “demand driven” it’s hard to say what level of “demand” it’s going for, as it may be still trying to fully supply the brain or other parts of the body with glucose. I at least haven’t seen enough to completely dismiss it in all circumstances for all people in the world).
“Extremely hard to achieve” and “not going to happen” are different things, and different people have different signaling that may or may not function in various degrees. Again, we have no idea what points the OP was coming from.
But, amonia toxicity is not the only concern there. You can find here a more recent explination from the Virta group about the problems of too much protein:
On the other hand, too much dietary protein can drive down ketones for several reasons. Protein has a moderate insulin stimulating effect; and though less than the impact of a similar amount of carbohydrate consumption, high protein intakes can drive down ketone production in the liver (Marliss 1978). In fact, specific amino acids like alanine are potently anti-ketogenic. Additionally, when consumed to excess, protein can upset gastro-intestinal function and place a stress on the kidneys to remove the additional nitrogen.
This, along with what Dr. Attia indicates, suggest that lowering of ketones happens regardless of whether you link that to glucose production or something else entirely (and if you have neither sufficient ketones nor glucose, I’d be doubtful you’d have much energy to use).
The 50 grams is high, which is why he doesn’t want to go that high. This is of course in context of a guy that does over 4K cal a day and marathon swimming.
Lowered ketone production may not be a danger, but it also may be a concern if you are trying to stay in the beneficial nutritional ketosis range for the various health benefits there. As for whether after fat adaptation you’d see less ketones in one place or another: again we don’t know the context to dismiss on this basis. We don’t know if the person is fat adapted or not yet, or how far along.
Aside from that, the whole argument there is simply “serum ketone level… provide no indication how the quantity actually being made and used”, but that doesn’t tell us anything. That means there’s a gigantic question mark left open as to what is going on, at least for that specific kind of testing. That leaves open reasons for concern.
Not everything listed was meant to be about something dangerous that may kill someone. It was reasons for concern, some of which may include dangers to health, some of which may be different concerns. An annoyance like excess skin may be exactly what a particular person wants to avoid, and why they may ask about high fat foods to replace 35g of protein (the total levels of which we know nothing about).
That’s only a potential good thing if you’re goal is loosing weight by energy deficit. It’s not a good thing if your concern is running a super marathon (one of the things ketogenic diets are used for), or simply functioning otherwise. Again we don’t know the context and thus it could be anything so these remain reasons for concern for a potential person.
Not everything that is a concern is a danger. But the last point was to say, if nothing else, there’s many indications this simply isn’t useful, so given the various reasons for concern, founded or not, why do it? Some of the concerns are dangers so again, why risk something that has no upsides, and only potential downsides?
To put it another way, you may be fairly convinced that a gun isn’t loaded, but why point it at your face and pull the trigger anyway?
Sure thing, but the point here wasn’t to say these are things everyone should be concerned about, it was just to give examples of reasons someone could be reasonably concerned and want to make a shift of 35g from protein to fat.
That’s of course not everything. Personally, if I was on a ketogenic diet for epilepsy treatment, I wouldn’t want to toy around with the period of spiked insulin even if the dip that follows ends up being a net zero over time. Maybe that wouldn’t do anything, or maybe I’d have a seizure, if there’s no benefit to the risk, I’d be hesitant to take it.
To the OP: this may sound crazy. But my super-fat (it does have some protein, not a ton) go to:
Get your favorite cheese of choice sliced about 3x normal thickness. I like jack cheese as it has the lowest carb and highest fat and a very mild flavor. I have to slice it myself because the deli never has it for some weird reason (only pepperjack, and I react to whatever they coat the peppers in pre-mix).
Then I make a strong garlic-butter with fresh garlic pressed, and kerrygold salted butter.
And I’m a hot pepper freak, so I take a slice of the cheese (which is firmer than most cheese slices 'cause it’s thicker), slather it very thickly with the garlic butter, and cover it with super-thin sliced jalapeno or serrano or if my garden’s in season, fresh cayenne. (Hoping to have an awesome -ponic setup by winter so I can have cayenne 365! :-))
So: butter on cheese, with peppers but you could leave those off. The cheese has some protein but it’s not all that much cheese. The butter I do very thickly. It’s a great fat addition and it’s a super “satiating” snack if you’re hungry. Also: you can make several of these, put 'em in fridge, and eat one or part of one to round out macros.
The cheese has some protein but it’s not all that much cheese. The butter I do very thickly. It’s a great fat addition and it’s a super “satiating” snack if you’re hungry. Also: you can make several of these, put 'em in fridge, and eat one or part of one to round out macros.