Here is a graph they don’t want you to see

(Polly) #1

Sebastian Rushworth’s blog is worth reading if you want to know what they aren’t telling us about Sweden.

(Bob M) #2

Holy freaking crap. That person knows nothing about Sweden. Does that person realize people get a month off in the summer in Sweden? Does that person realize that many Swedes went on “holiday” during that time? Does that person know there’s 15+ hours of light and people are outside (NOT inside) all the time.

That statement alone makes this a worthless article. It’s an extreme case of the Dunning-Kruger effect if I’ve ever seen one.

(Karen) #3

Deaths today per 1 M Related to Covid
USA. 1299
Sweden 1110

Definitely a difference but not as much as the article seems to suggest. I don’t know what their levels of heart disease, diabetes, and obesity are, but I imagine ours are higher.

(GINA ) #4

Since the author is a physician in Sweden, I think he probably knows those things.

The ‘they’ in question already took care of pesky findings like this. Antibodies don’t give anyone immunity. You have to keep wearing your mask and staying home.

(Polly) #5

Sebastian Rushworth MD lives and works in Stockholm where he is currently a doctor in the Emergency Department of a hospital but has an interest in chronic diseases.

I think he knows more about what is going on in Sweden than you or I do. That is why his take on all this should be of interest to those who want the reality rather than the propaganda.

#6

Most people aren’t interested in facts or nuance, or anything that would cause cognitive dissonance. That sadly appears to be as true here as in gen pop.

#7

One person’s response is opinion - whether a doctor or not.
He may have insight based on his experience - but insight isn’t science - it’s one person’s perspective.

A catch phrase for Ketogenic Forums used to be “Show Me The Science”…

I like this chap, Dr John Campbell, a retired nurse tutor who lives in Cumbria, England: his catch phrase is “Follow the Science”.
Here’s a recent video about the physiology of inflammation and how to treat it, or not!!

(GINA ) #8

Do you think he is lying about the number of people with antibodies?

I taught fact and opinion to 3rd graders for years. “Covid is (or isn’t) a big deal” is an opinion. “40% of people tested in X week were positive for antibodies” is a fact. One might dispute its veracity, but is not an opinion.

(Jane) #9

He is just scared. I don’t blame him with his heart health history and it pushes his buttons big time and he overreacts.

He has asked the admins how to mute all COVID threads. It can be done but if you have replied on a thread like this one you have to mute the thread individually. He indicated he didn’t have time to mute every COVID thread he had replied on but has time to observe the threads and be upset about them. A couple of clicks to mute takes much less energy!!! And will bring back peace of mind. Stop complaining and start MUTING!!!

(Ethan) #10

Technically, you can’t dispute the veracity of a fact. You can, however, dispute the conclusions drawn from it.

#11

It is a nice graph. Love all the stats that Sweden does and shares. I would feel better about his argument if he was not so defensive about it. And if remember correctly he made a similar claim after their first wave but they still saw a second and well I guess now we just have to hope he is right. Sweden has closed their borders with Norway so as far as policies are concerned we have come full circle

(Doug) #12

Polly, how would this even really matter, though? Antibodies don’t kill viruses - viruses are not ‘living organisms’ in that way. For immunity to viruses, we need the memory T cells that will recognize the specific proteins associated with the viruses.

Antibodies can show up from other viruses, not just Covid-19, and the graph is the share of ‘tested people,’ rather than the share of people in Sweden.

Gina, not sure you meant that as just a statement, but you’re right.

Karen, yes - and it’s a hard comparison to make accurately, anyway. I would say the medical care in Sweden is better, on average, and the U.S. is vastly bigger in population and area, and much more unwieldy because of that, and due to having 50 states, etc. And I have to believe the population of the U.S. is demonstrably more unhealthy.

Yeah, he’s a doctor, but he’s engaged in propaganda too. He’s had this position for a good while, i.e. “they” are conspiring against us, and he reaches for stuff that seems to support his position.

Anybody can say anything about Sweden. Heck, we’ve been discussing/arguing about it since at least last April, just on this forum. :smile:

The virus has been in Sweden for a year. Whatever the case was in Sweden, all along, in less than the last 3 months, there have been 90% as many Covid-19 deaths as in all the time before that. Likely more than that - there’s always a lag in Swedish death numbers. And this time around - this winter - there isn’t as high a proportion of deaths in aged care centers.

So whatever anybody says, or what opinions anybody has about Sweden, it’s still up to the individual (and by extention, the families) to protect themselves. Swedes have done a decent job of this, aside from the first wave, the nursing home deaths, and a substantial failure to keep the initial number of virus cases really low. Without as much of a state-mandated ‘lockdown,’ they’ve still mitigated things and slowed things down, bridging the gap in time to vaccines and to better medical care.

If “they are causing fear,” then a lot of people should be fearful, just as I should be fearful of eating three dozen doughnuts today or drinking a bottle of vodka. In April, May, June… we saw people saying “The worst is over for Sweden,” and depending on how one viewed things, yes, then perhaps that could be said, at that time. And for July, August, etc. (even to the end of October), although I think a more sensible view would have shown that that was really not true. The past 3 months have shown that it wasn’t true.

Helene, no wonder he’s a bit defensive - at times he really does go off the rails with if-not-intentionally-deceptive Ivor Cummins-style stuff, then at least stuff that really doesn’t prove any point. In another article, he attempts to explain away Sweden’s higher death rate versus Finland and Norway, by saying that Sweden’s overall mortality for 2019 was 2.5% lower than the average of the preceding 5 years, while Norway’s was the same and Finland’s was 1% higher.

Stuff like that makes me roll my eyes. I’d say, “Dude, Sweden’s currently got a Covid-19 death rate that’s 841% higher than Finland, and 999% higher than Norway.”

The graphs and statistics are interesting, no question about it. But I think that now it’s getting vaccinated that will (hopefully) be the real difference-maker.

#13

One develops antibodies to the virus SARS-Cov-2 by surviving an illness called COVID-19, a respiratory infection caused by said virus. After a healthy immune system recovers from that infection, the individual is protected against the illness, likely for some years after (based on other related viruses). The individual may subsequently become infected again, but is unlikely to become ill, and also unlikely to spread the virus to others.

(GINA ) #14

I was being sarcastic.

Haven’t you heard the experts telling us having been previously infected doesn’t confer immunity? Everyone still needs to stay home, wear a mask, and get the vaccine, even if they were infected and recovered. By that logic, it doesn’t matter what percentage of the population has antibodies.

#15

People still need to follow the public health guidelines for several reasons. One reason is that there will be no herd immunity until a large section of the population have received the vaccine. Another reason is that they still don’t have scientific proof that being vaccinated will stop you getting covid and passing it on - you may not end up in hospital bet there is still a risk to others. A third reason is that due to the massive number of infections the virus is mutating faster than you’d like and these mutations may be resistant to antibodies.

Nobody is suggesting that all of these mitigation measures will need to be in place once the majority of the world population are vaccinated. They don’t yet know. They are waiting on the science.

(Scott) #16

I had been thinking about this for awhile. I think they saw the potential problem of not being able to differentiate between vaccinated, already had it and I don’t want to wear a mask popoulations. So it is easier to just say everyone must wear a mask because we don’t know.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #17

My sister, who is a public health expert, and I were just talking about this the other day. Even after being vaccinated, there is still the possibility of getting exposed and being infectious for a while. In other words, I may not get sick, but I could still transmit infection to others. And there is also the visual aspect: I may know I’m not at risk, and that I am not a risk for others, but they don’t know that. So better to keep wearing the masks for the time being. My sister thinks that masks will become our new normal, just as safe sex practices have because of AIDS. I’m hoping she’s wrong, but . . . .

#18

The point of the graph “they don’t want you to see” is that the vaccinations better get done fast or the population will be immune and they may not be necessary.

Rubbish. Vaccines are shown to be 90-95% effective. That’s what vaccines are for.

True, mutations are a risk factor, although in general mutations are known to on average make the virus less dangerous.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #19

They are effective at keeping the person from getting ill. But it is still, apparently, possible to pass on the virus if exposed, even after vaccination. I don’t know if that’s an issue only with this virus/vaccine or in other situations, as well.

#20

A lot of things are possible. But trials showed the vaccines reduced the number of and severity of illness.

And claiming there’s no “scientific proof” reflects a woeful misunderstanding of science. This is exactly how the masses get fooled into believing mumbo jumbo BS anti-science like for example global warming, or even animal fat is bad for you. Proofs don’t exist in science, only in math. There’s no proof the sun will rise tomorrow and yet we know that it will.

What this thread suggests is something we all know to some degree or other. The so-called experts, especially government, are usually useless and create more problems than they solve. For all the shutdowns and mask mandates, the end result is probably the same, these restrictions probably had little benefit, but they made some people feel better. And no, I can’t prove it.