Help me with Fat Adaptation

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #1

Hi all,

I’ve been keto for 3 years. Lost some weight and got my A1c down from 5.9 to 5.4 (last measurement).

Some days I have “cheated some” 1/2 piece of bread with butter, things like that.

I don’t think I’m fat adapted:

  • occasional brain fog
  • appetite does not go away most days
  • energy levels flux

The last 10 days I have pushed my fat &% up >70% and carbs down to <10% as net carbs. My urine strips are now bright red. I don’t yet have a blood meter.

I think my problem is my body wants to produce its own glucose. My fasting BG was 133 yesterday morning, 126 this morning (measured at 4:30 am). Last night I did feel full (yea) and 2 hrs after my BG was 119. So I did not spike.

Just finished lunch of a pork chop with pork fat & butter on top. And pan seared cabbage with olive oil on it. I’m full. Another happy dance.

What can I do to get to Fat Adaptation? Am I on the right plan (very low carbs, fat >70%)?

I do go to the gym 5 to 6 times a week and do some light cardio and strength training. I’m building a little muscle. Not bad for a 64-year-old. But I’m not pumping iron so-to-speak. During the last 10 days, I have increased the intensity of my workout.

I’m looking forward to hearing what you have to say.

Eric

(Raj Seth) #2

keto for 3 years :clap:
share some stuff - ht, wt, ailments, A1c, what you eat, do you count calories/track macros, what are your goals, etc.

(Chris W) #3

If you have been following keto macros you should have fat adapted a couple years ago. But you said you are pushing your carbs to less than 10%, and for this reason I hate %s as that could be a significant amount of carbs depending upon your macro levels.

I am not sure what you are expecting from fat adaption but I think you may have some misconceptions. Brain fog and fat adaption really don’t have anything to do with one another if anything once I fat adapted I have less ketones and less clarity. Ketones tend to be the driver of clarity/mental focus those are produced by the liver in lieu of fat adaption. Fat adaption is direct transit of fat into the cells and cuts out the liver so you don’t use ketones as much and probably don’t make as many.

When you say your appetite, do you mean you are getting hungry or HANGRY there is a difference. I think most people would agree with me that hunger does go down but not away, I still get hungry anywhere from 12-18 hours after my last meal most of the time. Will I die if I want to start a fast, no not typically some salt has always taken care of it, or I am trying to be sleeping around that time.

Energy levels are directly tied to 2 things the way I see it if you are staying keto one is salt intake and the second is fat intake/body fat level. But when you cheat with bread you most certainly not going to be ketogeinc for a while. This will put you on the insulin roller coaster and your energy management will be in trouble waters for a time.

Just by what I see with your A1C you were pre diabetic, so your insulin resistance is higher. Yes your body will make glucose when you consume protein, how much and how long is really a mystery. If you regularly eat pork chops for instance that is not really a great source of protein in its lean and you would have to add fat.

So as @Rajseth said give us a little more back round and some hard numbers of food weight height etc.

#4

HI @daddyoh Eric – I suggest a couple of weeks of Intermittent Fasting (16/8 building towards one meal a day) to increase mental clarity and suppress appetite.

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #5

Thanks

I’m 64 and weigh 235. 3 years ago I was at about 260. I did manage to get to 220 but I allowed stress to drive my eating and drinking a few glasses of wine a day.

I have seen reduced sickness which is described here https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/sick-less-often/46239

I had 4x Bypass at 48 so I have heart disease. A recent nuclear stress test had the cardiologist declaring no blockage. I also have been under treatment for high blood pressure since I was 26.

Cutting back on carbs 3 years ago had me understanding that I was a carbaholic. I would stuff carbs in my face some days. Usually starchy crunchy carbs. I’m not big in deserts. These days I don’g crave carbs. I do like crunchy. Sickness reduction tells me I am carb sensitive. My Primary doctor supports my diet. I don’t think she understands it in details but she says you can’t argue with the reduction on sickness and wt lose. I take potassium and magnesium supplements and monitor blood levels at least 1/year for these.

My goal is to retire in better health than I have been in in the last 10+ years. I’ll retire in 3 years at 67.

So I guess I want it all:

  • lower weight (ideally 200lbs)
  • lower rates of sickness (done)
  • better brain health into older age
  • lower blood pressure aka less meds due to wt lose
  • never venture into pre-diabetes again

Since June 17 I have been tracking most meals at fatsecret.com. I do track macros and have target protein of about 100 to 110g. I have had zero bad days since tracking. There are days I don’t track because of schedule. I started at about 60% fat and upped it and am now at 75% fat. The last few days my net carb % has been <10%

I use olive oil, MCT oil, starting to use coconut oil in coffee (just 7 grams). I eat meat and just a little cheese. No other dairy. I could eat a lot of cheese as that is a fav. I have salads of spinach and arugula. I eat other no starch vegetables like cauliflower.

I want to maintain a LCHF diet for the rest of my life. I’m confident that I can.

I’m still hungry within a few hours of a meal. Stomach feels like a cavern. I’ve never been hangry. Not in my nature. I also have been a snacker my whole life and I can trace that back to childhood factors. Long story and won’t go into that now.

The last two days I’ve had more success with less hunger.

Pre 5/17 I was probably doing 25% carbs but did cheat a little a few days a week. I was also drinking wine most days. Now I have had two glasses one day since 6/17.

The info on fat adaptation seems confusing. I continue to read about it and listen to a lot of videos by noted doctors and scientists like Jeff Volek and Stephen Phinney.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Eric

#6

Hi Eric,
There are many people here with far more experience than I have - I’ve been keto this time around for 6 months. I went LC about 5 years ago but didn’t increase my fat intake enough and slid back to a higher carb diet. I’ve never been one for processed food or soda, etc. - but you can eat a lot of so-called “healthy” carbs without eating refined/processed foods, and that’s what I did.

Since Jan I’ve lost 30 lbs, and am hoping to lose another 10. I never was told I was pre-diabetic, but I know I was - given the central body weight gain, skin tags and tingling in my toes over the past few years. I’ve always had moments of mild hypoglycemia - since I was a kid. Not anymore!

So like another poster who questioned the 10% figure for carbs, I’m wondering how many grams of carbs you’re eating in a day. The percentage is tricky, especially if you’re still around 10%. I wonder if you aimed for 20 g or fewer a day for a few weeks if you might see a change.

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #7

@KNHVT 3 years ago my doctor said I had metabolic syndrome. She explained it as more than pre-diabetes because of my BP and wt. I am pre-diabetes free.

Yes, I’m trying to be <20g /day net carbs. I did not tack yesterday. Tuesday I was at 17g carbs, 94g protein and 157g fat (80%). As noted Tuesday my appetite started to improve. It’s not where I want it to be but the trend is my friend.

I am trying to get my insulin resistance improved and reduce my body’s production of glucose. The last two days have seen marked improvement and even in fluid retention in the leg that donated the veins for my bypass. This leg always swells some. My cardio doctor says that is part of the cost of having a bypass. But the swelling is markedly reduced.

I think the last 6 months my diet was worse than I thought. So I’m hopeful for a steady improvement.

#8

It sounds like you’re on the right track. Congratulations - you’ve really stuck with it. I suppose its possible that you may be extremely carb-sensitive - have you ever tried a few weeks at zero carbs? It does seem we all need to experiment to find what works for our own unique body.

You know what the dudes say - Keep calm and Keto on!

Best luck to you!

(Allie) #9

I like this saying :grinning:

Sounds like you’re headed the right way for sure.

(Chris Robertson) #10

I’ve not heard of someone being strict keto for years and not being fat adapted. I know some plains Indians (I’m 50% Native American and have spent time living on reservations) that can’t go into nutritional ketosis for reasons that are genetic but they can still gain benefits of being fat adapted. I don’t know how or why it works but I know it’s a thing. Keto isn’t for everybody and there can be genetic factors that make HFLC diets unhealthy for some people. Perhaps there are genetic factors, or other medical things that could be preventing fat adaptation as well. I don’t know. Just brain storming. I do think it’s worth discussing with your Dr.

With that out of the way I just want to ask are you are fasting too? I know some people find that an extended fast of 5-7 days has helped kick them over the line and made them feel like they were fat adapted.

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #11

@corduroyew - My adherence to keto varied in those 3 years but some benefits still happened. I think my body wants to produce glucose and until I bust through that I’ll be in this limbo.

At this point I’n not interested in extended fasting. I might skip breakfast and lunch two days in a row and see what that does.

Thanks for brainstorming.

(Raj Seth) #12

Try as you might, you cannot stop your body from producing glucose - not unless you want to be dead. Glucose is essential for about 20% of the brain, for red blood cells, and for the core of the kidneys. Probably a couple other things, but you get the point. The liver will produce the glucose you need on demand, and that never goes away.
However, if you stop eating carbs, you will not get an insulin spike that will tell your body to store the glucose as fat. your entire blood can hold about 1 tsp of glucose (non-diabetic), and at 5 tsp you are probably heading towards an ER to avoid diabetic coma or something. However, your liver is waaaay smarter, and it produces glucose to meet demand.

SO stop the carbs. want crunch - pork rinds or chicharrones. I have lowry’s microwave pork rinds - and they cook just like the micro popcorn. yummmy. If you dont want those, there are various other ways to get the crunch - check recipes section…

(Chris W) #13

And there lays your problem most likely or it was. You seem to be on the right course now, but you were not really keto if you worth north of 10% most of the time possibly all of the time. Again this is why I like grams and not percentages, if I were to eat 25% of my daily intake in carbs it would 1000 calories of carbs, that is something on the order of 250g depending upon what you choose.

I ran my calculator and came up with some different numbers but I don’t have height or how active you are. At maintain levels(no deficit of fat) I put you at 5’10 and I show you being at 187g of fat, and 141g of protein. So that right off the bat is pretty far off from what you are in taking. That may explain a few of the problems you are having like hunger. Hunger signalling is a big problem for many people, with the level of carbs you were at more or less I would consider you just starting esp since you are higher on the insulin dysfunction level. So in order to not have hunger between meals I would up the fat, hopefully since you have been lower carb for such a long time you don’t take terribly long to get everything moving a better pace.

Yea except cauliflower is not starchy you can pretty much eat as much as you want with little effect.

If you want us to evaluate your diet I don’t think any of us would have a problem with that, it seems that you are on the right track just need some course corrections that is all. If you keep the carbs under 20g that is pretty much a guarantee for ketosis and fat adaption. If you were cheating as often as you were and taking in the amount of carbs I suspect you were probably never keto adapted let alone fat adapted. Folks who are IR pretty much just take longer anyway so were as it took me a 6 weeks or so, you may just be getting to decent ketone levels at 6 weeks but it is really hard to say no two people are a like. Fat adaption while a good thing is not an end all be all part of the WOE, I personally think when I keto adapted more things happened to me that were noticeable than fat adaption provided. So don’t fret about fat adaption at this moment in time I think you need to work on just being in ketosis, your hunger is already turning course. That was happening to me before fat adaption along with the mental clarity.

KCKO

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #14

Last evening I had a chicken dish with some zuccini straw. Added 2 patties of butter. Had a little cucumber salad with fish sauce and olive oil.

Felt full finally. Went to a outdoor concert and wife bought some wings. I did not want any. This is a big win. So I decided to do a 18/6 fast.

The fast was easy. Some hunger pains that came and went. Broke the fast with bacon, eggs, spinach arugula salad with Olive Oil and a ounce of home smoked cheese.

I usually get tired right before lunch. Not today. Hope this means a little improvement in BG control.

I will continue to do 18/6 fasts each week and hope to get to skipping two meals in the next month.

Thanks everyone for your encouragement.

(Allie) #15

@daddyoh certainly sounds like you’re on the right track :grinning: