Great write up by Dr. Jason Fung

obesity
fung
#51

I agree. I got the impression from Dr. Fung’s article that he understood his audience to be uninformed and non-discerning. Most people know there is disagreement about CICO and they want toothsome information, not patronizing analogies.

(CharleyD) #52

I was with him right up until the last sentence. Has anyone here developed a fatty liver being in ketosis?

Eh, what do I know, I don’t have that many subscribers :cold_sweat:

(Doug) #53

Never thought about this, Charley. If anything really operates there, I’d bet that it’s of a short enough nature that it’s not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. How long will somebody be in the stage of “all the fat coming off the body”? Even with long term fasting, I’ve never seen any mention of problems, there.

(Bunny) #54
(Richard Hanson) #55

+1

It was the patronizing analogies that I found particular offensive. Analogies are fine when the intent is to illuminate, they are intellectually dishonest when the intent is to obscure.

Dr. Fung is brilliant, I have little doubt that he did not understands what he was doing. I think he got so wrapped up in his own agenda that he has neglected the truth.

Keto for Life!

Warmest Regards,
Richard

(Bunny) #56

LIVER & GALL BLADDER CLEANSING

#57

People with well functioning metabolisms can tolerate wide fluctuations in caloric intake and nutritional constitution without gaining weight. We all know someone who can eat anything and not gain weight. :angry:

People with deranged metabolisms don’t have the same degree of flexibility. Since different macro nutrients are processed differently by our body, a HFLC diet can be helpful for weight loss, but it’s not magical.

The n=1 experiments with weight loss occurring despite over eating, are short term. If those individuals were to continue the experiment over a 3-4 months, they would gain weight.

If there were any macro nutrient profile that would allow limitless eating, we’d know about it. Athletes who compete in a weight based sport would be interested. Ditto endurance athletes. Not to mention the legions of people who are starving themselves trying to lose weight.

(Ross) #58

How can you claim such a thing without evidence? That’s just silly.

(Ross) #59

and just FYI, I ate that way for longer than 3-4 months and dropped down to my set weight and maintained a stable weight…so I know for a fact that is not correct.

Hormonal model of obesity requires high insulin for fat storage. If insulin is low, then fat storage should not be possible.

(Bunny) #60

Lots of variables to consider & metabolic level of fitness (most research studies have so many holes in them, that you can sift Pasta with it and need other research studies to cross-validate the missing variables):

VARIABLES:

  1. Metabolic Fitness? (e.g. 6 Month full keto adaption! i.e. rate of both fat and glucose depletion or sugar burn?).

  2. Level of physical activity (pumping iron, walking, running etc.) anaerobic or aerobic? i.e. Glycogen stored (the rest gets stored as fat) in muscle and liver cells converting back to glucose when existing blood glucose levels get “bonked (initiating glucagon to be released from pancreas to covert {biosynthesis} glycogen back to glucose)!” e.g. 1 hour of walking will burn up all your glucose, another hour will burn the fat (only/actually happens in a resting state metabolism i.e. last (delta) stages of sleep and from HGH secretion levels from pituitary cells when in delta) and depending (when first starting out) on certain body types without aggravating (adrenal body type) cortisol levels.

  3. Endocrine Levels By Age and/or Metabolic Fitness (e.g. intermittent fasting/ketones for fuel):

DHEA

Cortisol

HGH

Insulin spiking pattern

To name a few!

#61

I don’t disagree with your comments about Fung’s characterization being inadequate, but as a keto devotee who is routinely asked to explain to friends of friends/strangers the hows and whys of my keto lifestyle, I can assure you the general public I encounter is wholly ignorant of all knowledge of their own bodies and how food affects them and drives health or disease. Truly most are lemmings listening to standard American medical advice and would rather take a pill or have a simple explanation as Fung offers rather than thinking for themselves.

I routinely lose people when I start to explain basic biology and how food and the body and weight loss and gain and blood sugars, cholesterol et al interact in our wonderfully, amazingly complex bodies. They want a simple one sentence answer, and like it or not, Fung provides that. The general American public has been willingly brainwashed and are comfortable staying there.

Sadly, I know MUCH more than my own physician sometimes when it comes to the details of how and why things work the way they do with my health, because she was trained in medical school and fortunately, I wasn’t. I keep her because she is the only half decent option in my locale; she doesn’t fight me on the choices I am making and is instead willing to learn and help me keep moving forward by ordering labs and supplements I need from her for insurance to cover my labs.

#62

I think this blog post is completely misleading. The common currency is not insulin, it’s ATP (specifically net).

(What The Fast?!) #63

Have tried both and can say for CERTAIN, that yes…yes it does.I gained weight eating high calorie keto (extremely minimal carbs) and have lost it fasting.

I am not metabolically deranged, I have low fasting insulin (2.2), and very low insulin resistance…and I still gained weight on high calorie keto. In fact, it’s been damn near impossilbe over the course of 7-8 months to lose any weight on keto. The only thing that’s moving the needle is fasting.

(VLC.MD) #64

I’ve heard Dr. Fung say many times that calories do matter. When pressed, he will say that calories matter. But he likes to drum up controversy by saying calories dont matter as a gateway for understanding insulin matters more.

#65

His explanation is oversimplified to the point of being untrue, thus unhelpful.

Taking it to its logical extreme, it would suggest that calories are unnecessary. If calories don’t count for gaining weight, then they don’t count for losing weight, so why eat at all?

(VLC.MD) #66

Fung did write a fasting book !

#67

Exactly. For losing weight.

(Crow T. Robot) #68

Well, more precisely, for fixing your insulin and other hormones and thus losing weight.

(Ross) #69

That is amazing and would seem to fly in the face of the hormonal model!

If you don’t mind me asking, what are your exercise habits?
Do you do regular resistance and/or aerobic workouts?

It occurred to me over the weekend that we have a potential research goldmine here on the forum.
We are a community of long-term keto adapted people with a variety of lifestyles & sub-diet variations.
Oh, what we might learn from a few carefully crafted questionnaires & some data mining!

(Ross) #70

In the whole theme of correlation VS causation, caloric intake could be a proxy for insulin levels in most people.

Would probably be very high correlation in people who eat a moderate or greater carb diet.

There would be a correlation between calories and insulin (weight gain/loss) but the causation would be related to the macros nutrients.