Governmental response to Covid-19, Sweden, etc

(GINA ) #204

Well, I know deaths are being over counted in my county. We have only had three, but the last one was a man his 90s who was already in hospice. Word got out and the county put a disclaimer on the tracking website that is pretty much the equivalent of “No, really. We are not making this up.”

I can only imagine if the politics were different the headline would have been… “Covid Deaths Over-Reported by 33%!!!”

(Doug) #205

Well, good - even if one isn’t killed by it, there is risk of lung damage, heart damage (sometimes permanent for both of those), strokes, neurological damage leading to impaired balance, coordination, thought, etc. We’re only now starting to see information on this, but so far it looks like more cases of that stuff than deaths.

Certainly, not all countries do it the exact same way, but there’s no doubt that in many places there is a under-counting of Covid-19 deaths, and that’s definitely true for the U.K. Worldometers shows 45,233 deaths right now. Even just looking at the fifteen-week period 14 March - 26 June, there were 64,600 deaths above the normal rate. A lot of the deaths in the higher figure that aren’t currently attributed to Covid-19 were caused by it, i.e. there is a definite under-counting.

I don’t think it’s “Scaremongering” at all. The Reuters headline I’m looking at says, " ‘Worst-case’ UK winter could see 120,000 COVID deaths in second wave." Okay - “Worst case.” People know what that means.

Quoting the person they were talking to, it says, “This is not a prediction, but it is a possibility.” Quite straightforward, there.

The U.K., relative to most countries worldwide, has an older population, and also one with higher obesity, rates of diabetes, heart disease, COPD, kidney disease, etc. - things that make people more vulnerable to the virus.

120,000 is 1 in 566 people in the U.K. In no way is it outlandish or hysterical to see the possibility. Compare that with how many people have increased vulnerability:

1 in 16 has diabetes.
1 in 9 has heart disease
1 in 4 is obese
1 in 2 is overweight

(bulkbiker) #206

Complete tosh I’m afraid Doug. Seems there has been massive over reporting of “Covid” deaths.
Public Health England seem to have been playing slightly loosely with the rules.

Also large immigrant population with poor metabolic health and very low Vit D levels at the end of winter. Which was when this all kicked off here.
120,000 is complete rubbish as the most vulnerable (who didn’t die in previous years flu seasons) are now gone.

(Doug) #207

Then let’s see some actual rational thinking behind that, Mark. The 64,600 excess deaths for 14 March - 26 June are there - these are above and beyond the normal mortality rate. There’s a big gap between the 45,000+ deaths (as in Worldometers) and the 64,000+.

This question or very similar has come up before, a month or two ago…? It was somewhat laborious, but I checked the UK gov’t figures for England, Wale, Scotland, Ireland and the numbers did add up very well, i.e. there was indeed the large amount of deaths above the normal, expected rate, and there was a substantial gap between reported Covid-19 deaths and the total ‘excess’ deaths.

I thought of that too, i.e. even if it’s a bit indelicate to say so, the virus took the “low-hanging fruit” first. Personally, I don’t expect 120,000 more deaths in the U.K. in that time frame - because of course things are going to be done, as opposed to nothing being done. But 1 in 566 people remains not an outlandish, impossible figure but rather one that would easily fit in the very-vulnerable population that is still present.

(bulkbiker) #208

The UK response was appalling… bit like NY sending the elderly out of hospitals back to care homes with no testing.
There has also been a significant increase in the use of do not resuscitate orders for both the very elderly and disabled.
That will probably explain a significant proportion of the excess deaths 50%.
Many others could well be explained by extra heart attacks and cancer patients not visiting hospitals because of fear of contracting the “deadly virus” these will not only be present in current figures but also in future deaths.
The ast 3 weeks have seen below average death rates in the general population and only time will tell if indeed the low hanging fruit have been taken early (or later if they survived previous flu seasons).

(Doug) #209

While I would say that of course there are some such deaths, it really does not go far in properly attributing all of the excess deaths. I don’t see anybody saying that there are zero non-Covid-19 deaths among the ‘excess.’ But there are certainly some, i.e. there is a definite under-count of Covid-19 deaths.

It will take a while to examine all these deaths and better allocate them, and of course some relative few will remain in question. The gov’t is considering this and working on it. The Office of National Statistics says, “There is not enough evidence to suggest the other theories investigated can explain much of the increase in non-COVID-19 death registrations.”

(bulkbiker) #210

Me neither nor have I claimed that.
Just that your claim that COVID deaths were under reported is likely not correct.

(Doug) #211

Well, we’re talking about almost 20,000 ‘excess’ deaths - it’s no big trick to have “a lot” of Covid-19 deaths in there, i.e. the Covid-19 undercount is real.

Worldometers is saying 45,233 Covid-19 deaths. I’ve never seen anything remotely rational that suggests the true U.K. total of Covid-19 deaths are that amount or lower. In the same Reuters article we were talking about, above, it says, The United Kingdom’s current death toll from confirmed cases of COVID-19 is around 45,000, the highest in Europe. Including suspected cases, more than 55,000 people have died, according to a Reuters tally of official data sources.

This is at least heading in the right direction. The undercount of Covid-19 deaths began early, i.e. it started out as only people who died in the hospital and who had had a positive virus test.

(bulkbiker) #212

And now they are counting anyone who died “with” covid as dying “from” covid on the certificate which will cause over-reporting. That and PHE inflating the figures means that deaths here are more than likely overblown in total. But hey what do I know I only live here.



How can someone die with covid and not die from covid? Do you even know how the virus works?

(GINA ) #214

Thousands, maybe millions of people have covid and are completely asymptomatic. Any one of them could die from anything else. They could die of cancer, or a heart attack, or an aneurysm.

(Peter) #215

Brilliantly argued rebuttal, there. Very convincing.

Just repeat the talking points you’ve been told to repeat, that’s how it works. (And have no idea that more than one reason can be put on most death certificates, because that doesn’t fit the narrative at all.) Like, for example, conentrating only on deaths, and not the massive fallout from those who don’t die but have developed other significant long-term health issues as a result.


Covid causes both of these because the virus reduces blood pressure which leads to massive blood clotting.

Tell me about it. And I hope the virus doesn’t mutate significantly to cause more damage to those of us susceptible.


On any given day, there are folks who are dying of heart failure (for instance) and if they were dying and happened to also have tested positive then their death is attributed to COVID. That’s dying with COVID 19 rather than from it.
I’m not arguing the numbers; I’m just explaining the with/from question.

(GINA ) #218

Maybe covid may cause heart attacks and aneurysms, but people have been dying from them forever, long before covid. They are not all caused by covid.

I think of it like this… drinking and driving kills people. We all know that. We all know of that guy that drove around with an open bottle of booze and hit a tree. I sometimes have booze in my car too, (in the back, in a grocery bag after a shopping trip). If I get in an accident on the way home from Wine & More, was my accident caused by alcohol? There was booze in my car. Did I die from alcohol, or with alcohol?

(Polly) #219

@OldDoug @MarkGossage

There is a problem with the way that deaths are being counted in England (which has the largest population in the UK). It is explained in this article:

(Polly) #220

including road traffic accidents?

(bulkbiker) #221

Have you got any data as to how many of these there really are because the news reports never seem to mention numbers. Are we talking10’s, hundreds or thousands? Also I guess we should b looking at the treatments these people received… I read a few reports where those who were intubated have severe lung damage… from covid or due to the treatment they received… will we ever know I wonder. In the US I’m guessing that would lead to some prett huge damages claims.

(Ron) #222

The after affects are just now being realized from the early cases back in march and april. You have to remember that this is a totally new virus strain and it is a learning curve on every level. Science is just beginning to learn the damages that are being done after the fact of contamination.

I am sure we will but it is going to take time to study those that have recovered to see the overall damages. When the body is starved of oxygen there are numerous organs that are severely affected.


This doesn’t make sense because you’re comparing alcohol you haven’t ingested with a virus which you have no choice whether it infects you or not.

Covid also affects the brain and automotive collisions did increase during the covid spikes.