"Good fats", "bad fats"

(German Ketonian) #1

Apart from

  1. the extraction method (thermically, chemically, native)
  2. the O3-O6 ratio
  3. SFA-MUSA-PUFA ratio

is there anything that distinguishes good fats from bad fats?

Let me elaborate with some more detailed questions:

  • Flaxseed oil has a wonderful O3-O6 ratio. In Germany, we have “native, cold-pressed rapeseed oil”. Would that be a “good fat”? Or should the little amount of SFA acids be considered a problem?

  • Rapeseed oil has a (fairly) good O3-O6 ratio. In Germany, we have “native, cold-pressed rapeseed oil”. Would that be an “acceptable fat”, then?

  • I have seen Phinney talk about him using safflower oil, which is cold-pressed and not thermically or chemically extracted. I do not see any reason to use safflower oil based on the O3-O6 ratio, though. Any thoughts on his rationale for choosing this particular kind of oil?

  • In general, does it matter, if a fat comes from a vegetable or animal source? If I unterstand this correctly, then animal fat are considered “safe” primarily because they don’t contain PUFAs and mainly SFAs and, therefore, you don’t have to check O3-O6 ratios (one exception to this would be coconut oil, which pretty much entirely consists of SFAs, despite coming from a plant). Additionally, SFAs are relatively easily accessible for energy. Did I get this right?

  • If my assumptions are correct, then, if you’re well informed, you could fare just as well (if not better!) with a plant fat-based diet. Some, as the first bullet points indicate, give you moderate to tremendously good O3-O6 ratios and, if combined with fish, oil should make for a safe, anti-inflammatory approach to the ketogenic diet

Disclaimer: No, I am not proposing a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle! I love my animals fats (particularly fish). This is a question pertaining solely to my rudimentary understanding of what is considered “safe” and “healthy” from a ketogenic point of view.

(Ron) #2

I have nothing to defend this but read it from an excerpt in a Vita Life article I believe.
Sources of saturated and monounsaturated fats should provide the majority of your dietary fat intake with a limited amount from polyunsaturates, which are highly concentrated in most vegetable oils.

(German Ketonian) #3

Why, though? Say my staple diet oil is flaxseed oil, or cold-pressed rapeseed oil with some fish added for the Omega 6, I get a well-balanced ratio. What’s wrong with that? Couldn’t I live on that healthily, despite the main components of my diet consisting of PUFAs? Or is there something more to PUFAs than just O3-6 ratios, which renders them to be less preferable than SFAs and MUFAs?

(Karen) #4

Not really sure. I’ve looked at those fat charts and for cooking butter, or lard appear to have a nice balance of saturated and monounsaturated fats.

For dressing, extra virgin olive oil. Canola oil/rapseed . . . Not so much.

PUFAS are generally fragile and oxidized. Even organic, expeller pressed oils have been found to have mutated, oxidized, heat-damaged oils in them. (4) In one study, expeller pressed canola oil was found to have 5% trans fats (linked to heart disease), cyclic hydrocarbons (a carcinogen) and oxyphytosterols (linked to arterial damage). (4)

K

(German Ketonian) #5

I see. So even the minimal heat used in the mechanical extraction tends to be enough for the unstable PUFAs to oxidize into trans fats, if I get this correctly. I don’t know about the standards in the US, but in Europe, I believe you can get very high quality rapeseed and flaxseed oil, which would keep this to a minimum, I assume.

Again: I am not questioning that most cheap vegetable oils are horrible for your health. I am just trying to find out why so few websites on keto don’t go into more detail on finding vegetable oils which legitimately are providing a decent to excellent O3-6 ratio.

(Bunny) #6

“…The chemical composition of an oil is also a key factor in the risk of rancidity. Here the basic principles involve saturated and unsaturated fat. The more saturated fat contained in an oil, the less susceptible it is to rancidity. The greater the amount of unsaturated fat in an oil, the more likely it is to become rancidity. Since the healthiest plant oils are all highly unsaturated, they are especially susceptible to rancidity.

Some unsaturated oils, like extra virgin olive oil, are a little less susceptible to rancidity because a larger amount of their unsaturated fat falls into a special category called “monounsaturated.” Extra virgin olive is about 75% monounsaturated, which is somewhat unusual for a plant oil. Plant oils usually have more polyunsaturated fat than monounsaturated fat, and that is one reason why they are particularly susceptible to rancidity. While the highly monounsaturated nature of extra virgin olive oil doesn’t mean that you can forget about the issue of rancidity, it does mean that this unique oil is a little more stable than oils that have much fewer monounsaturates. …” …More

What makes for a good cooking oil? Science, please!
(German Ketonian) #7

Thanks @atomicspacebunny. Is rancidity a problem in terms of health, or taste (or both)? The rate at which I consume oil, it nevery actually gets the chance to become rancid :rofl:

(Adam Kirby) #8

I think the answer is simple - is the fat stable or does it easily oxidize?

If the former, it’s good. If the latter, it’s unhealthy. The latter includes pretty much all seed oils regardless of O6/03 ratio.

(LeeAnn Brooks) #9

Perhaps simply because the cheap stuff has saturated the market and it’s difficult for the average consumer to discern a difference or afford a quality alternative, so they stick with basics, which is “stay away from vegetable oils.”

(German Ketonian) #10

I don’t think it’s that easy, @akirby83. What would be the reason for oxidizing fats to be unhealthy? If this were the case, consuming O3 would also be unhealthy. Also, O6 also are one of the essential fatty acids, so the human body requires them. Some keto websites list flaxseed oil as a recommended oil:

Recommended types of PUFAs:
Extra virgin olive oil
Flaxseeds and flaxseed oil
Walnuts
Fatty fish and fish oil
Sesame oil
Chia seeds
Nut oils
Avocado oil

Source: https://www.perfectketo.com/good-fats-vs-bad-fats-on-the-ketogenic-diet/

I think I’ll give organic, cold pressed flaxseed oil a shot due to it’s O3 content.

(Ron) #11

I interpret this as meaning it is hard to get the proper ratio’s with the high concentrations more than harm from the oils themselves. I would agree with you if the ratios are right and the refining process is good that the negatives would be eliminated.

(Adam Kirby) #12

Listen to any of the podcasts Tucker Goodrich has done. He is VERY knowledgeable on this subject and frankly I can only butcher his interpretation of this area by trying to repeat it. He did one on the Low Carb Cardiologist just recently.

As far as I understand it, o3-o6 ratio doesn’t matter as much as total o6 consumed, because o6 cancels out the beneficial effects of o3. So even an oil with a more “favorable” balance could simply have too much o6.

The other problem is that oxidized linoleic acid in particular seems to have horrible effects on the body, down to the mitochondria level.

Like I said, check out Tucker, he’s the man for this stuff.

(German Ketonian) #13

Thanks for this! Will definitely listen to this!

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #14

There’s a thing that I harp on that is not being mentioned here.
Not all N-3 is the same. They come in three flavors: ALA, EPA, DHA.
ALA is listed as the essential by the US government, because ALA will convert to EPA and DHA, but EPA and DHA are the actual useful forms of N-3.

Now, you’re talking about n-3 composition of plant oils. It’s all ALA. So, going without animal n-3 (which is already converted by the animal… fish and ruminants, mostly), means you’re relying on conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA. Time for a link:

So, if you’re only going from seed oils, not only are you running the backwards way to your useful n-3 fatty acids, but you’re also damping down your ALA-DHA and ALA-EPA conversion mechanism with the high n-6 intake. Junky conversion rate at the best of times (I’ve seen rates for EPA swinging from 6% to 30%, and DHA from 1-9%), cut by 40-50% because of high n-6 intake.

That’s no way to feed your brain, your eyes, and in your baby batter.

There’s not really a good path around your desire to have an optimal amount of the useful n3 (not ALA) and keep the n6 low, so as not to mess it all up.

(Adam Kirby) #15

Fascinating, thanks for this!

Does this hold true for fruit oils like olive, coconut, and avocado (viewed positively by LCHF-sphere) as well as the seed oils?

(German Ketonian) #16

Something interesting about ALA is that it seems to be a good fat source for inducing ketogenesis:

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #17

Interesting. But just going low carb is sufficient to switch on ketone metabolism. I’d rather eat whole animal foods, stick to fruit (olive, avo, coconut) and animal oils (butter, lard, duck, schmaltz, tallow, etc) than much about with cold pressed flax oil to jump start ketosis.

(Bunny) #18

Frying oxidation (rancidness) and lard, suet or tallow (animal fats) etc. I like to deep fry with it a couple times (refrigerate) then dispose of it!

I refuse to deep fry with vegetable plant based oils (that’s what’s killing[1] everyone?). Try finding a lard based electric deep fryer? (good luck!)

Research:

  1. Re-evaluation of the traditional diet-heart hypothesis: analysis of recovered data from Minnesota Coronary Experiment (1968-73) Conclusions: Available evidence from randomized controlled trials shows that replacement of saturated fat in the diet with linoleic acid effectively lowers serum cholesterol but does not support the hypothesis that this translates to a lower risk of death from coronary heart disease or all causes. Findings from the Minnesota Coronary Experiment add to growing evidence that incomplete publication has contributed to overestimation of the benefits of replacing saturated fat with vegetable oils rich in linoleic acid. <=== OXIDIZED FROM FRYING OR SITTING ON A SHELF TOO LONG AND IS IT COLD PRESSED-EXTRA VIRGIN ORGANIC? OPPOSING EFFECT ON MORTALITY/LONGEVITY AS IT RELATES TO FRESHNESS? MIXING TOO MUCH SUGAR AND CARBS WITH THE FAT IN THE DIET IS THE REAL CULPRIT?
(German Ketonian) #19

Thanks for this, everyone! Really interesting! It seems the matter is complicated… If I get it right, flax seed oil is healthy (also ALA seems to be beneficial, or at least benign), but I won’t be using it to replace my fish eating habits. This seems to be the main take-away from everything I’ve read now…