Gabe's - "eat more fat newbies" post and videos - Epiphany moment for me

[JohnH]

@MD500_Pilot Regarding the metabolic slowdown issue, which seems to occur with caloric reduction in general: In addition to Dr. Fung’s work, there have been other studies done which indicate that it is a continuous reduction in daily caloric intake that is the culprit for triggering the so-called “famine response.” If you have alternating low and normal food intake periods, the slowdown is reduced or avoided.

Not just short time intermittent fasting, but longer periods, too. There was a study done of two groups of obese men. Group one was put on a daily-calorie-deficit diet for 16 straight weeks. Group two was given the same diet, but with alternating periods of 2 weeks on the low-cal diet, with 2 weeks on their maintenance-level calories, for a total of 30 weeks. The ones on the two-on, two off routine not only lost more weight, but didn’t have any slowdown in RMR during that time.

So just like with alternate-day fasting or other time-restricted calorie reductions, the trick seems to be to not make it a constant, unrelenting reduction, to where your body decides this is the new normal and has to make adjustments.

Also note, in that experiment I mentioned, they did not “feast” during the higher intake weeks - they ate at their maintenance level.

I think I must tend to do this more or less as part of my routine, because I will have periods of lower intake and then start to feel a little off - probably some metabolic slowdown, and then to counter that I have periods where I intentionally focus on eating more for a while. Not off plan, not huge amounts, but making sure I get in some regular, solid, well-balanced meals for a while. So maybe I’ve been following this all along without realizing it.

[MD500_Pilot]

So just like with alternate-day fasting or other time-restricted calorie reductions, the trick seems to be to not make it a constant, unrelenting reduction, to where your body decides this is the new normal and has to make adjustments.

@JohnH

This makes perfect sense with what I was reading, thank you for sharing! I guess what I am going to try (at least for now) in the 3 or 4 days of fasting (4 starting out, dropping to three when I get to my target goal) and the other 3 or 4 days eating normal calorie load which I think for me is about 2300 based on the this website and on this webite. The are both pretty close so I assume accurate (might be a bad assumption).

Both seem a bit high just to maintain weight, but I guess the added benefit will be the fasting days do bring that overall down somewhat. I just don’t want to get into a “slowdown”!

[goohsmom]

There are some people whose satiety / hunger signaling does not properly line up with metabolic needs, and for whom the “eat to satiety” advice does not work, because it does not create the automatic calorie deficit needed.

That is why I do an intentional 1-2 day fast per month. During that period of not-eating, I get re-acquainted with those eating cues and remind myself that it is OK to be empty or even hungry and to not respond to it. Re-asserting the control of the executive over the limbic system as it were, and also recalibrating those satiety signals back down to where it matches actual metabolic needs.

To me, it’s more re-acquainting my executive system with what the body means by different signals, and then enforcing that learning. As I progress, my brain gets a signal that it interprets as hunger. I go through the process–bored, tired, thirsty, need salt, etc, giving 15 minutes or so between each step. Eventually, the body says “yes, that’s what I needed” and the brain starts to learn the meaning of the signal. Eventually, I hope my brain and body will be speaking the same language. They do communicate well on fat intake, so that’s a good start.

I just had a visual of Helen Keller learning to read, first she had to learn that words had meaning. I wonder if our bodies are feeling the same frustration Anne Sullivan must have felt, while trying to form those connections.

[JohnH]

To me, it’s more re-acquainting my executive system with what the body means by different signals, and then enforcing that learning

Yes, that is probably a more accurate wording of what I was trying to convey. Basically mindfulness around eating, and breaking automatic habits and patterns and making your eating and eating choices intentional.

[David_Stilley]

Phinney is way too generous IMHO in the carbs @ 10%.

Here’s the problem inherent in percentage based carbs and trying to hit a macro based on percentages, this is a typical example from my personal logs.

The first one is what I actually ate,

This one I adjusted adding 5 tablespoons of olive oil and one large egg,

As you can see the carb percentage was balanced and lowered by percentage but 600 kcals were added and the fat went up, without an actual lowering of the carbs consumed. Adding an egg actually lowered the protein percentage!

That’s why we generally stick to gram limits for carbs, the other two are goal targets not limits and variation doesn’t make make as much difference other than I would have had to consume more fat which doesn’t necessarily mean more fat burning, especially after the first month or two getting used to burning fat as a fuel.

I do believe there’s a certain amount of mental block to get past eating a higher fat diet for most people coming from a calorie restricted low fat diet mentality.

Ketosis is driven by limiting carbs, weight loss is driven by caloric deficit.

Pushing fat beyond satiety to meet a macro can definitely work against weight loss. It’s possible to be in ketosis and maintain or even gain weight. I’m doing it now with my underweight son. This is why you need to re-evaluate macros as you loose weight and also listen to your body’s hunger signals if you want continued loss and don’t want to level out. This is later stage keto weight loss. Just eating lots of fat generally works at the beginning to get you adapted but eventually levels out if you don’t lower food intake as you go.

[David_Stilley]

I think you might have taken what I posted wrong, and I see some issues with your macro calculations I believe.

I consistently burn about 4000-4500 calories a day right now which leaves me with a deficit of 1600 - 2100 calories a day. Over 60 days of keto that almost falls exactly in line with the .5lbs of weight loss daily I am having.

Of course the amount of 300 seems arbitrary as to your situation if you’re needing 4000-4500 calories per day. I’m curious how your daily caloric needs were calculated, with an app? 15 pounds of weight loss sounds like a first month thing, water weight. Fat loss is about 1-2 lbs per week in most cases depending on your amount to loose. Beyond that amount you could be loosing more than just fat. Too rapid of fat loss leaves you with sagging skin. You didn’t become overweight or obese in a few months, why would you expect to have your body fix itself properly at such a rate?

The math is simple -

300 lbs * 0.8 = 240 gms or 8.5 oz of protein daily
That protein will be 40% of my dietary caloric needs daily - 960 calories

First I believe the calculation is supposed to be 1g. per lb of lean body mass, not your total weight. You don’t need protein to maintain fat weight. KETO is a protein sparing diet. That means you don’t loose muscle and bone mass during weight loss. Running at a slight protein deficit encourages autophagy where your skin shrinks along with fat better. Excess protein generally doesn’t cause weight gain but I have found it causes me to level out with weight loss and no skin shrinkage at this stage of the game. Still experimenting at 10 months in.

So if your 300 lb guy needs to loose 100 lbs. to be at his estimated lean fat percentage he should be eating 160-200g. of protein, the equivalent of 740-800 grams of meat.

Subtract the 80 -100 gms of sneaky carbs

I just gotta ask WTH do you eat that could “sneak” 4x-5x the amount you should limit yourself to daily, 20 net carbohydrates! You’re 100-120g. of carbs would have nothing to do with a ketogenic diet if this is truly something you need to consider.

1340/9 = 148.8 gms of fat or 5.3 oz daily of fat intake

This is not a target with keto, it’s a lever. Add fat if you’re not feeling sustained between meals. Cut back on it for weight loss. You can’t cut it down to low fat because body fat will only metabolize at about 35 calories per pound of your body fat per day. Cutting beyond that capacity causes a metabolic slow down to compensate and less weight loss.You don’t need to push dietary fat for the sake of meeting a macro number, your body fat being burned can contribute to that number. This is beyond induction when fat adaptation starts, maybe 6-10 weeks into a ketogenic diet.

Feel great about being in ketosis ? BFD. It doesn’t mean a thing if you are in the adapt stage and trying to lose weight.

You need the calorie deficit. Just as you wrote.

Ketosis is driven by limiting carbs, weight loss is driven by caloric deficit.

Okay this is what really got me posting again. First ketosis is the goal and it’s a very important step going forward. Being in ketosis is fat burning mode as fuel and that my friend is everything.

Being in the adapt stage is very important and weight loss shouldn’t be a driving factor as much as getting your metabolism and hormone functions in line. This happens during ketosis. You are taking my statement about caloric deficit into a CICO way of looking at things. Exercising hard and cutting calories instead of using you metabolism as the main tool for weight loss. It’s important to use the caloric deficit when you become fat adapted, not as a noob who’s just started. First get into strong steady ketosis and be strict with carbs during you 2 month adaptation period, no off plan eating. If you screw that up you could just be starting over and over again never getting into sustained ketosis or becoming fat adapted.

[David_Stilley]

Ketosis isn’t the goal unless it’s accompanied by a caloric deficit.

I disagree, ketosis is the first goal on a ketogenic diet and that is followed by caloric restriction once fat adapted. This happens naturally for most of us, we just aren’t as hungry when we become fat adapted and ketosis is absolutely necessary for that to happen.

Not being in ketosis means your diet isn’t ketogenic. If carbs aren’t low enough you can loose weight but not being in ketosis and restricting calories is pretty much every other diet plan under the sun. Being in ketosis is the healthy sustainable method of weight loss.

You can eat 60% carbs and not be in ketosis, restricting calories and loose weight. It’s called Jenny Craig, Weight Watchers and 100 different names. You are correct that you don’t need to be in ketosis to loose weight if you’re restricting calories, but that’s not the KETO WAY. How long have you been on KETO? Are you the ex Olympic cyclist?

[ArtMeursault]

Let’s not inflate things - ex Olympic class cyclist, not an Olympian.

Keto - 60 days.

The whole argument is based on two premises: ‘keto diet’ and the ‘adapt stage’ - no need to argue what planet were on or if water is wet.

The point has been and is that being in ketosis alone is meaningless for the adapt stage if one is trying to lose weight because it is the caloric deficit while in ketosis that reduces body fat.

[Keto6468]

Yes it appears that way. I think those chartswith the made up numbers, indicate that you need to be making up the difference from your body fat in the caloric fuel needs until you reach your goal weight at which time you add in plate fat.

[carolT]

The point has been and is that being in ketosis alone is meaningless for the adapt stage if one is trying to lose weight…

Ketones are a part of appetite regulation, as are fatty acids in the bloodstream. The response to different foods (mostly carbs) by GLP-1 and GIP sensors in the duodenum alter insulin response. Yes, low carb without ketosis works for many people if they can get their insulin in a range that allows maximal access to stored body fat. Using body fat as a fuel is part of the energy balance equation. An individual isn’t going to have a way to measure that aspect of it other than by satiety signals, which may or may not be completely accurate depending on many hormonal factors.

There’s an interesting discussion of more concepts along these lines here:

Why would my metabolism slow down if I’m getting cals from fat stores?

Not trying to be a smart aleck, truly, but if our bodies have fat to burn (and assuming we’re in ketosis), why would lowering one’s calories cause your metabolism to slow down? If we’re burning our fat stores there should be no deficit, right? Just my n=1 here, but I lose so much faster when I keep my calories to 1,200 or so. (5’4”, 47, 190#, female, sedentary, for reference) Can someone help me make sense of this? I’m not a newb (been low-carb for a year) and I have devoured this site, but I …

[PaulL]

Ketosis is driven by limiting carbs, fat loss is driven by the resulting low insulin, weight loss is driven by caloric deficit caloric deficit is driven by weight loss.

FTFY. As we all know, intentional caloric deficit is the wrong lever to use on the body, if permanent fat loss is the goal. Shifting hormonal balance by altering nutrient quality is the real lever.

Yes, low carb without ketosis works for many people if they can get their insulin in a range that allows maximal access to stored body fat.

My understanding is that an insulin level that permits the mobilisation of excess stored fat implies a carbohydrate intake low enough to shift the insulin/glucagon ratio towards stimulating gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis. What am I missing?

[carolT]

For people with normal insulin levels and ratios there can be maintenance or even weifht loss after removing the most high glycemic foods. I can’t do it though.

[PaulL]

I had a long chat with Dr. Phinney at Ketofest, and he was saying—assuming that I’m passing it on correctly—that the thinking is starting to be that inflammation is the root cause of obesity, diabetes, etc. It hasn’t been shown, but it seems to be the hypothesis that is garnering a lot of attention at the moment.

[carolT]

Yes, I liked @siobhan 's presentation about the immune system as a cause of chronically elevated insulin levels leading to long term problems. And we know there can be a lot of different sources of inflammatory substances in the diet, like PUFAs and other things that certain people can’t tolerate at the gut barrier, like grains for example.

The inflammatory cytokines have a huge influence on metabolism - as they should for acute infection or damage - but being in a perpetual state of high alert is unhealthy.

[Keto6468]

Richard Morris talks about calorie restriction in insulin sensitive people on the Keto woman podcast recently. I found it interesting. I am relatively insulin sensitive, so I may be able to calorie reduce within ketogenic parameters to lose weight.

https://ketowomanpodcast.com/episodes/

[gabe]

Just saw this now – you should have tagged me, @ArtMeursault!

There’s lots to say, but I think it’s all already been said. Love this thread!

[David_Stilley]

@PaulL Don’t get me wrong Paul. Eating less fat creates a calorie deficit. If you’re stuffing yourself with keto food you can put on weight. My son has gained about 6-7 lbs. since he started. All in all keto makes eating less easier but it’s not something that comes to everyone automatically as I have read so much here. I am talking about eating a bit less fat that your daily caloric requirements if you have fat to get rid of. Not a CICO perspective.

But if you’re doing lazy keto that can work to a point but I completely plateaued for a couple of months without feeling like I was overeating. It’s possible to eat too much of nutritionally dense food without feeling like you’re overeating. If you’re eating more than you can use it will be stored. I don’t intentionally cut calories, but actually find it hard to eat enough doing TMAD to get to where Cronometer projects my caloric needs to be. I’m generally feeling fine and not trying to limit calories, it’s natural. But if I chose to eat nuts, HWC and more cheese I can easily meet that caloric number the app says I need. But I don’t.

Dr. Phinney also cautions against some of the normally accepted keto habits like fat slathering, adding extra fat for the sake of consuming more can cause you to stop loosing. Pouring oils and butter too liberally, eating fat bombs when you don’t really need the extra fat etc. You can talk about it from a different perspective with different wording but it’s essentially the same, Eat too much you stay the same or gain, eat a bit less than you need and access body fat and encourage more protein recycling through autophagy during your 16-18 hours of not eating daily.

Maybe I have it wrong, I don’t know because I am not an expert.

[PaulL]

Of course losing fat involves eating less than one expends. My point was more about the direction in which causality runs. Getting the hormones right leads to the caloric deficit, not the other way around. Merely cutting calories is not nearly so effective, because there are other metabolic benefits to eating the proper human diet. For one thing, the proper human diet targets fat loss, as opposed to muscle tissue loss or decreased bone density.

[David_Stilley]

Getting the hormones right leads to the caloric deficit, not the other way around.

What about Dr. Fung, fasting for reversal of diabetes (hormone corrections through caloric elimination)?

Merely cutting calories is not nearly so effective, because there are other metabolic benefits to eating the proper human diet. For one thing, the proper human diet targets fat loss, as opposed to muscle tissue loss or decreased bone density.

I totally agree and don’t intentionally cut calories, it’s a natural effect from ketosis as you said earlier.

I think it’s easy to get wrapped up in science and knowledge of keto to the point where you’re paying more attention to that than what’s actually happening in your personal experience and trying to apply that knowledge. N=1 It’s easy to think, well I’m doing the right thing so I’ll just not focus on lowering body fat more and be happy with the NSV’s, which are great.

But in my experience just trusting the process has brought mixed results. Yes my health has drastically improved and I feel much better. I have lost weight but not enough. I assume you and I are similar in that way but you don’t have an accountability thread that I know of so your experience is scattered around the forum.

You are super knowledgeable about the science and wording of matters KETO and I have great respect for the amount of time and study you have put in. I wish that I knew more of your personal experience and how this knowledge has worked for you personally. I think you would have a fascinating accountability thread.

[ArtMeursault]

I am seeing that in research I am finding with Afib by the way - CRT, IL-6 and other blood inflammatory markers as precursors to Afib events but given many Afibs begin during sleep it is highly possible that sleep apnea and hypoxia are the root cause as they increase CRT et al.