Fructose: how much if any?

[atomicspacebunny]

In this article, 8 weeks of fructose administered at the level of 25% of total daily calories decreased insulin sensitivity by 17% in previously healthy subjects, but a diet of 25% glucose had no effect.

This has to do with visceral adiposity being that high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) DOES NOT trigger insulin and DOES NOT increase blood glucose but the liver coverts it directly into visceral fat which then in turn accumulates in microscopic particles inside the internal organs like the liver and pancreas and around them and by receding the GLUT4 insulin regulated glucose transporter found primarily in adipose tissues and striated skeletal muscle and cardiac tissue, hence a “…17% decrease in insulin sensitivity?

References:

[1] DISCOVERY OF INHIBITOR OF FRUCTOSE TRANSPORTER OFFERS NOVEL TREATMENT FOR DIABETES AND CANCER: “…Fructose is a naturally occurring carbohydrate. Also called fruit sugar, it is found in fruits, most root vegetables and honey and is absorbed directly into the blood stream during digestion. Commercially, fructose is extracted from sugar cane, sugar beets and corn as high-fructose corn syrup and used as a sweetener in numerous processed foods and drinks to enhance taste and browning. It is the sweetest of all the naturally occurring carbohydrates such as glucose and sucrose and cheapest to produce. As a result, many individuals consume extremely high amounts of this carbohydrate every day. Fructose consumption has increased by almost 50% among U. S. adults in the last 30 years. …” …More

[ODE]

So I’m asking again … show me one good proof that high glucose intake (as a percentage of the diet) causes insulin resistance, diabetes, obesity or whatever you want.

Nice one, mind as well ask about studies of probability of death when jumping under a moving train while ur at it. To save karim some time heres an answer to your question u can (again) deflect:

United States

[Don_Q]

I dunno. I don’t know much about it, and it’s mostly over my head anyway. I find @Karim_Wassef’s argument compelling, but there appears to be a counter-argument to be made.

I think that two studies I cited support the claim that large doses of fructose decrease insulin sensitivity in short term experiments, but large doses of glucose do not. This does not exonerate glucose over longer timespans under different conditions however. If @alexelcu has evidence of the latter, i think it would be interesting to read.

[Karim_Wassef]

I read that research and I agree that fructose is instrumental in insulin resistance. Even Dr Robert Lustig goes into it in ge video I posted.

This was interesting specifically because fructose doesn’t cause an insulin spike… so why does it cause insulin resistance.

This is because it hits home in the liver with fatty liver disease (bunny said it) with accumulation of visceral fat. The liver is the master controller of metabolism and with it down, insulin resistance follows.

However, Dave Feldman, Ben Bikman, Jason Fung, Paul Mason, Ivor Cummins, among many as well the paper I cited (published back in 1996), all show a second path to the disease. And that goes through the more direct path of adiposite overflow. Basically, the constant (yes chronic) flow of glucose causes chronic insulin and continuous sequestration of triglycerides into adiposites.

There are some people who have the genetic ability to continue to create new adiposites and these people get huge with fat, but do not develop insulin resistance. This is because there are new storage sites constantly being created to absorb the triglycerides with the same level of insulin. Insulin has an epigenetic effect of triggering this new “fresh” fat cell creation here.

But there are other people who are genetically unable to do this. They can be thin and their fat cells are “done”. There is no more room to stuff more triglycerides into the existing adiposites. So they swell. As they do, they resist the body trying to force more triglycerides into them. So the body has to force it in - literally. It issues more and more insulin to drive more into the existing cells … glucose levels rise, insulin levels rise, the fat cells swell and become unhealthy… insulin resistance.

Most of us are somewhere between the two extremes. But the mechanism is the same. Eat glucose… fill adiposite… maximize genetic ability to have adiposite… overfill adiposite to the extreme… unregulated insulin… repeat until insulin resistance…

So you can make the argument that fructose causes fatty liver with is a super accelerator to insulin resistance. Yes. But there is a secondary path to adiposite overfill also causing insulin resistance.

Ignoring this is like saying that standing in front of a fast moving truck kills you but if it’s a moving VW Beatle (car from the 60s for you kids), you should be ok… mmmm no.

[Karim_Wassef]

As an aside - is it possible to eat starch in moderation and not develop insulin resistance?

The problem here is multi fold… the first is that the cyclic insulin causes by eating glucose, having blood glucose rise, and the insulin bringing it down… intrinsically drives hunger. So we eat again… and again… this hunger cycle can be controlled with discipline … but it’s like saying “it’s ok, I’ll jump out of the way before the car hits me”

Second… In poor countries where food is scarce and they self ration, they may be able to develop a culture where they strictly control their dietary intake of glucose. but in the modern environment with an abundance of cheap starch… this is not likely… starchy food is made to be addictive and the dietary regulations are to eat as frequently as possible.

If one were to control their glucose intake and be very disciplined in their caloric in and out so they are ok being hungry and consciously don’t eat - they can jump out of the way of the car… but what a horrible life of continuous hunger and deprivation…

That’s what the media and “conventional” medicine have been spouting for 50 years… how much destruction must that ideology bring before we wake up and recognize that it’s a trap to keep us sick, addicted, miserable and on drugs?

[Don_Q]

So you can make the argument that fructose causes fatty liver with is a super accelerator to insulin resistance. Yes. But there is a secondary path to adiposite overfill also causing insulin resistance.

This is a nice summary, and it’s the one that makes the most sense to me as well.

I’m still curious to hear the counterargument that glucose plays no role in the development of typeII diabetes however. I think it would be fascinating if there is any evidence whatsoever supporting this contention. I can’t imagine how it’s possible.

[atomicspacebunny]

@atomicspacebunny

Bunny - you had a link for the starch based diet… can you share that here? I think it would be useful.

Starch based diet from a historical perspective but keep in mind the law of cause and effect with the studies cited below, their may have been e.g. a lot of intermittent or extended fasting going on, on top of it?

The other is, everything was organic e.g. bread (grains) eaten within 48 hours* of being milled (turned into flour) and baked?

It would be very difficult to reproduce these antiquated results in todays industrialized world of agriculture and food processing instrumentalities…

Footnotes:

[*] …very nutrient dense, very similar to eating meat and possibly fat (germ oils) or what you would get from eating animal proteins and fats (germ oils)?

”…When a food rationing system during World War I severely restricted the Danish population’s intake of meats, dairy products, fats, and alcohol but placed no restrictions on such foods as barley, bread, potatoes, and vegetables, Denmark achieved the lowest mortality rate in its history [5]. Similarly, the mortality due to diabetes in England and Wales decreased sharply while wartime food rationing in both World War I and World War II limited access to animal-source foods and fats, only to increase after the those foods became available again in peacetime [6]…More

[5] Hindhede M. JAMA. 1920. Vegetarian experiment with a population of 3 million: the effect of food restriction on mortality in Copenhagen during war. [Google Scholar]

[6] Young FG, Richardson KC, Lawrence RD, Himsworth HP, Harris H, Crofton WM, Walker M, Hilton SM. Discussion on the cause of diabetes. Proc R Soc Med. 1949;42:321–330.[PMC free article] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]

[lfod14]

A little fructose isn’t going to hurt anything, but the bigger picture is getting energy from a bar that’s really more about the protein than energy. Fructose isn’t going to do anything for workout energy, that’s why people doing TKD use Dextrose. The bars may be fine for the protein, but they’re much better ways for pre-workout energy.

[atomicspacebunny]

A little fructose isn’t going to hurt anything

Problems in the world of the sugar burners is that it (ending-in-ose) is in everything you buy; it is hard to escape the reality of that (amount?), you may have no idea, or some idea about it NOT “hurting anything?”

You may not be spiking/triggering insulin but you sure are opening the doors to different metabolic pathways for visceral adiposity and future insulin resistance to occur?

[Karim_Wassef]

I meant the one where eating just starch and fasting caused a very rapid weight loss that was lean mass driven… I think I remember it right.

[atomicspacebunny]

I meant the one where eating just starch and fasting caused a very rapid weight loss that was lean mass driven… I think I remember it right.

Very specific to your question you will find here.

The other stuff:

Effect of eating vegetables before carbohydrates on glucose excursions in patients with type 2 diabetes: “…The glycemic excursions and incremental glucose peak were significantly lower when the subjects ate vegetables before carbohydrates compared to the reverse regimen. This evidence supports the effectiveness of eating vegetables before carbohydrates on glucose excursions in the short-term and glycemic control in the long-term in patients with type 2 diabetes. …” …More

3 Types of Carbohydrates:

1. Fiber (a major source of micronutrients; excluding bread)

2. Sugar (including all bread, grain types/bleached flour)

3. Starch (below)

Types of Resistant Starch; Not all resistant starches are the same. There are 4 different types (2):

• Type 1: Is found in grains, seeds and legumes and resists digestion because it’s bound within the fibrous cell walls.
• Type 2: Is found in some starchy foods, including raw sweet potatoes and green (unripe) bananas. (THE KIND YOU WANT ON KETO!)
• Type 3: Is formed when certain starchy foods, including potatoes and rice, are cooked and then cooled. The cooling turns some of the digestible starches into resistant starches via retrogradation (3).
• Type 4: Is man-made and formed via a chemical process. …More

Insulin & Glucagon:

1. Insulin is a anabolic (synthesis) hormone (anabolism is powered by catabolism, where large molecules are broken down into smaller parts and then used up in cellular respiration) = CARBOHYDRATES

2. Glucagon is a catabolic hormone (stimulates breakdown, production of glucose; release of stored glycogen). = PROTEIN

Notes:

[1] Eat as much starch as you wish - by hyperlipid

[2] Starchy stable isotopes? I don’t think so! - by hyperlipid

[3] Breast cancer and starch - by hyperlipid

[4] Is Starch a Beneficial Nutrient or a Toxin? You Be the Judge. - Chris Kresser

[5] Transcript of “Dr. Grace Liu: Fixing the Gut Microbiome with Resistant Starch and Probiotics - 177

[6] How much protein is excessive? How much protein is enough?

[7] Autophagy: Intermittent fasting protein cycling (IFPC) - Naomi Whittel “…Protein Cycling (PC) The next piece of reclaiming your youth is the protein cycling or PC part. PC is the practice of alternating between periods of low protein consumption and normal to high protein consumption. …”

[8 Why Insulin Doesn’t Make Us Fat | MWM 2.26: “…Insulin combined with low energy status will promote the uptake of glucose in skeletal muscle over adipose tissue and will promote the oxidation of glucose rather than its incorporation into fat. …”

[9] Is Insulin Really a Response to Carbohydrate or Just a Gauge of Energy Status? | MWM 2.23

[PaulL]

Are you thinking of Kempner’s rice diet? It’s an extremely high-carb, very low-fat diet that lowered weight and actually reversed diabetes in patients who tried it. Amber O’Hearn has a lecture in which she discusses it. Very interesting. I’ll try to remember to post a link when I’m next on my computer.

As I recall the lecture, many of Kempner’s patients found the diet very difficult to adhere to, and there’s a bizarre story that he actually whipped some of them (with their consent) in order to help them stay the course. But many people were able to carefully reintroduce favorite foods without becoming diabetic or obese again. The key, apparently, is that fat intake has to be extremely low, in order for the Kempner diet to work.

[Karim_Wassef]

No. It was a potato fasting diet where he only ate potatoes without fat or protein and it caused rapid metabolic degradation resulting in massive weight loss. It was so rapid that it caused them to end the experiment prematurely since the lean mass loss was a substantial component of the loss.

[Dread1840]

It was like eating flowers before stepping into the gym.

[Karim_Wassef]

Results?

[Dread1840]

Felt fine. Good even. Will see how the rest of this week goes and decide if I’ll continue next.

[PaulL]

I think we need to talk about causality again.

Certainly. Since hyperglycemia is an emergency situation, the body has evolved defenses against it, primarily insulin. The damage done by advanced glycation end-products from elevated serum glucose and the damage caused by chronic hyperinsulinemia have been clearly eludicated. The insulinogenic effect of glucose, and the mechanisms by which insulin signals adipose tissue to store glucose as triglycerides and muscle to metabolize glucose and store the excess as glycogen are too well-known to need repeating here.

The difference between diets rich in refined carbohydrates and refined sugar and the sort of carbohydrate-rich traditional diet I suspect you have in mind, lies in the lack of fiber, on the one hand, and the lack of massive hits of glucose and fructose, on the other. The dietary fiber in the traditional diets slows down the absorption of glucose and fructose into the bloodstream, and promotes the feeding of the gut bacteria instead. Refined carbohydrate, stripped of the protective fiber, is mostly chains of glucose molecules that enter the bloodstream unimpeded.

Refined sugar, of course, gives the body a double whammy, because it contains not only glucose, but also fructose. The glucose has the well-known effect on insulin, and the fructose causes fatty liver disease, when ingested at a rate too high for the liver to handle (the liver’s safe-handling rate of fructose metabolism is fairly low). Fatty liver disease is a known cause of hepatic insulin resistance, and it is a serious risk factor for Type II diabetes.

I have no doubt that people can eat a reasonable amount of carbohydrate that does not include refined grains and sugars and much healthier than they would be otherwise. (That is, after all, essentially what we do on low-carb/keto.) Gout and diabetes were “rich-man’s” diseases for many centuries, after all. They did not reach epidemic proportions until modern industrial refining processes were developed in the nineteenth century and brought the price of white flour and refined sugar within reach of us common folk.

If all that is your point, then it is well-taken. But the way you present it always makes me think you are denying the effect of serum glucose on serum insulin and the effect of serum insulin on fat storage, both of which are pretty much settled science.

[amwassil]

Of course, here we have to ask what’s the difference between complex carbs, from natural sources and refined carbs?

A couple hours.

[atomicspacebunny]

No. It was a potato fasting diet where he only ate potatoes without fat or protein and it caused rapid metabolic degradation resulting in massive weight loss.

Raw eggs, raw sweet potato sticks; add a little fat, meat and bone broth think of the possibilities?

May explain why 80 year old grandma has a six pack and we don’t?

[Karim_Wassef]

Even in a state of starvation blood glucose is maintained right up until...

Is the term, 'safe starches' an oxymoron?

This is excellent