For those considering TKD / CKD or some variation and your A1C

#1

Last couple months I’ve definitely noticed an uptick on those talking about and asking about possibly switching to TKD/CKD or some variation of, sometimes just some pre workout carbs. Most here are aware I do a weirdo hybrid of them, and some have messaged me with questions about it, sometimes with worries of sugar levels or A1C issues, this was mine as of yesterday, I’ve been doing this a little over a year now, we’re all different, but at an average of 150-200g between, pre-post workout, this is where I’m still landing.

For context, when I started standard keto as a 300lb pre-diabetic (after already going lower carb) I did that for 4yrs. But after serious losses in the gym, went to what I’m doing now.

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(Doug) #2

Good stuff, Ifod! And congratulations on that 4.9. :sunglasses:

(Jane) #3

Well done!!

#4

Great results! Had you already lost most of your excess fat before you started adding back carbs? I feel like I would need to heal my insulin resistance first before trying something like that.

#5

Nope! I’d lost about 50lbs already at that point, but was still around 250lbs when I switched, my BF% was in the low 30’s.

Adding the carbs back in was the beginning of fixing problems at a much faster rate and for a couple reasons. First being going to the gym with glycogen tanks full meant night and day better workouts and allowed me to push a lot harder in the gym without gassing out, which of course allowed me to start regaining the large amount of muscle that I’d lost in the previous years. Muscle mass is the best glucose disposal agent there is.

So with that on the way back the carbs were a huge positive, then, more muscle mass on your body means a higher RMR, so that was continuously making me burn more calories at rest, so didn’t take long before I could eat adult sized meals again, which by itself allowed me to be properly fueled all the time on top of being able to work out correctly. Cardio is great for burning calories,(and obviously cardiovascular health) and burns a lot more than lifting, but once you stop, it stops. More lean mass means burning more at rest, and we’re at rest more than we’re doing cardio!

I’m now around 215-220lbs and my last DEXA had me at 13% BF, so a much better end result.

Like many here the (first time) I fattened up and lost it, it was early-mid 00’s and I did Atkins, which I loved, I think (now) where Atkins had it right was his starting out (Induction) phase was basically what most keto’rs do indefinitely, but then you added carbs back in to assess your carb tolerance, which is greatly influenced by your daily life. It also avoids losing the metabolic flexibility to deal with carbs, in my case, almost completely!

After years of standard keto, any moderate amount of carbs would start the clock to me passing out where I was and waking up hungover. Sometimes not feeling right for a couple days.Thats crazy. Our metabolism are supposed to be able to take fuel, and burn it. losing that ability is no better than when a SAD eater eats a high fat meal, has GI issues and stuck in a bathroom for an hour. Nothing ideal about that.

I think not overdoing carbs and processed inflammatory crap is the ideal WOE for everybody regardless, but being totally extreme one way or the other comes with more downsides than upsides for most.

I think working out, and having good muscle mass is a better way to fix insulin resistance than just keeping carbs ultra low without question. Still can’t overdo them, still can’t eat garbage, and how much you take in should be tailored to each person and their activity. That’s leaving out both the longevity, immune, and let’s be real, the good aesthetic that goes with that as well.

#6

Thanks for the answer! I think tying the carb intake with my workout intensity would be key. It seems like the times I have gone off the rails with adding back carbs correspond to heavy-OT crunch times at work when I have to stop working out and carbs become easy to stress eat. Then losing the ketosis increases my appetite and next thing I know I have rapidly regained pounds and it takes me some time to get back on track. Also the types of carbs make a lot of difference for me too. Processed crap is definitely a lot worse. I’ve been slowly working up to higher intensity workouts again, so I may experiment with adding a few more “safe” starches in a few weeks, while making sure I am still producing ketones overnight.

#7

Exactly, a Sweet Potato and a Cupcake are NOT the same! The easiest way to start testing the waters is pre-workout carbs like Dextrose or Cyclic Dextrin. Just stick them in your preworkout or anything really and in about 20min you’re ready to go! By the time you’re done working out the carbs are gone. I’ve also noticed I’ve never had any “bad carb” side effects like cravings or hunger from them even though they’re very high glycemic (which is the point of them).

On the weight, just remember that as you keep doing it you’re slowly reloading your glycogen and that can be VERY noticeable on the scale. I have around a 10lb swing from depleted to the reserves being full. I typically never deplete intentionally, but on a day where for whatever reason the gym gets skipping, or a day or two off it’s just normal keto meals and even that can be a 5lb drop with calorie the same, not losing those!

Gotta do the mental change do watch trends, and not day to day weight. I’d recomend weighing daily so you can have trends to watch, but only the trend actually matters in the long run. I don’t even think of ketones or ketosis anymore, I know aside from around my workouts it’s happening, all that matters. Even when I lost a ton prior my ketones almost never went above 0.3, since there’s no link between that number and fat loss speed, pointless to care about IMO.

#8

Hi lfod14, sounds like you’ve found your sweet spot and your WOE is perfectly tailored to you, I too believe in more benefits long term from a WOE with a focus on nourishing whole foods, carbs included than an extreme, for me anyway. We’re all different. I have made my own tweaks, and am adding fruit. My raw milk and honey were the first additions to my WOE. Now I’ve also added in mango, which is waiting to ripen. I believe carbs are absolutely necessary for energy, and that, contrary to the belief in the lowcarb and ketogenic realms, they are both beneficial and essential. Again, we’re all different, but my experience is if I only eat meat my energy completely disappears, and when I added in some carbohydrates (raw milk and honey) I had more energy, no doubt about it. The mango will be great as fuel before my brisk morning walks, I currently am using my raw honey for this. A bit of sugar, natural sugar that is, in a whole fruit, can be wonderful, ready energy to utilise.

(Bob M) #9

Many of us have the exact opposite experience: carbs suck the life out of us.

I wore a CGM for over a year. During that year, how many times did I have fruit? Not once. If that’s the case, why is fruit “essential”?

YOU might get a benefit from eating some carbs, but that does not mean carbs are either beneficial or essential.

#11

Hi Bob, I believe it’s individual. But also that when considering carbs, I think of it as fast, ready energy that then must be utilised. Say, before my brisk morning walk, perhaps I’d like to extend it, or walk a bit faster, I think eating just a bit of fruit, say quarter of a mango, will be wonderfully beneficial for this. So it’s, to grab some ready energy, then use it, but also I’m certain of the other benefits that fruit has as well. This is something that will be different for everyone, and it is my observation that stories and experiences vary very much on this. I should have phrased my post a bit differently, that I believe carbs are both beneficial and essential to some of us, not all, as we are all unique. For me, personally, my energy was too low when I was carnivore, giving up all conventional dairy in favour of raw grassfed milk and grassfed butter helped, and I’m looking for some raw cheese and butter as well. But still my energy is not where I want it to be, perhaps because of my medication. So, to increase my fitness, I am going to incorporate some fruit, to see if it will help. I will probably post an update on this forum as to progress (or lack of progress if no beneficial change at all) in a few months.

#13

Hi MattWisti, nearly 78 and doing as well as you are, that’s very impressive🙂Oh, I don’t intend to do any lifting, I’m quite sedentary really, but I do enjoy my morning walks. I think the people cycling in and out of fat-adaptation might be using quite a bit more carbs, as my intention is to remain in ketosis, or fat-adaptation. I know my body is fat-adapted because I now eat two meals a day, feeling no hunger inbetween those two meals, and also I’m slimming down/streamlining. So, if adding a bit of fruit to my morning routine brings on old aches, inflammation, causes water retention, my old lipoedema leg bruises (I have none) I will know it’s not worth it.

#14

Who said it was? I could under eat eat protein and not workout and lose a ton of muscle too and live just fine, but just being alive isn’t good enough. Nor is sucking in the gym, or having a dad bod. And ultra endurace runners are typically bonebags. Cool if that’s what you’re into, but I’m not.

Again, it produces what you need to live, I did SKD for years, I’m very aware of the difference with empty tanks vs full.

Just as muscular huh? Pretty sure nobody during the Ice Age would qualify for even a local bodybuilding competition, so sorry, no.

May want to look into the difference between aerobic and anaerobic. What kind of lifting do you do? At what intensity? Ever compete?

#17

Well, of course they do. Funny you say those who come and go are rationalizing, where you missed the mark is that people doing what works for them don’t have to rationalize it.

Oh? Curious if you think that my “useless” upper body muscle is just that when my neighbor across the street can’t shovel his wifes car out with wet snow and I have to help so his wife can go to work. I should add he’s almost 10yrs younger than me. Or how about my Father that’s in his 70’s that can still bend over and pick things up, maybe put them on a closet shelf, or take something down from one thanks to him weight training most of his life? (Still does) How about a person his age or older that can get out of a chair unassisted? Better yet, that “useless” leg muscle that stops a hip from shattering when there’s a slip or something? Hmmmm. Ya… definitely useless.

I’d say having minimal muscle and allowing sarcopenia and ultimately osteoporosis helping your body deteriorate is the useless one. Then of course there’s the pretty undisputed fact of both the metabolic, immune and longevity that comes along with muscle mass.

But you do you!

#18

Quote: So, if adding a bit of fruit to my morning routine brings on old aches, inflammation, causes water retention, my old lipoedema leg bruises (I have none) I will know it’s not worth it.
Quote

Hi, I’m following your journey because I have similar symptoms as you. I have no metabolic problems to start with — just looking for an answer to my pain and swelling!

Your recent posts suggest you are now going plant and dairy free. Did you decide fruit brought on swelling? Or, just feeling fine without them so not bothering? Personally, I can’t imagine not eating any plants, because without them, I can’t force down enough calories. It is hard for me to eat meat by itself. Dairy, on the other hand, I can abuse enormously. I think I would be best off if I eliminated dairy to be honest. It’s hard!

#19

Hi Wendy, as to dairy, I first found myself standing at a crossroad of whether to quit dairy or replace it with raw and grassfed. So I did the latter for a while. But as I also at the same time as making this switch finally went off my long term antibiotics which caused both my facial and occular roseaca to flare up, my hope that I could tolerate grassfed, raw dairy diminished. Then I came across a wonderful doctor on youtube who has been a carnivore for 14 years. Dr. Lisa Wiedeman, an optometrist with 32 years experience dealing with eye disease. And she was talking about how carnivore could cure eye disease such as dry eye, blepharitis, meibomian gland dysfunction, macular degeneration. All of these eye diseases that I have, and were diagnosed with in my twenties. The doctor gives me hope. I will do a separate post on her. But back to the fruit for a moment, I took a bite of some mango I had cut up for my oldest boy and I just realised there and then it wasn’t for me. I had developed an aversion to sweetness at this point, and also given up the raw, local honey I had purchased. Again too sweet, and my body said immediately, not worth it. Some may have a hard time giving up fruits, but I have no more desire for anything sweet. Back to the dairy, yes I’ve decided now to go entirely dairy free and replace the butter I currently cook with, with animal fats from the butcher. But until I can make that visit, which will be next week, I’ll still be having to cook my ox liver in butter, but this too, the last of the dairy foods in my life, will go, next week. I will enquire if the butcher has beef tallow/dripping, all their lamb, beef, bison and water buffalo are 100% grassfed. It is my hope that making this switch from dairy to animal fats, will help cure my eye diseases and my roseaca, as well as my lipoedema and lymphedema. But I realise healing is a process that takes years. I’ve also given up coffee and all manner of caffeine, I’ll make a separate post on why I decided to do this. Wish you the best of luck on your journey, Wendy🙂

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #20

Actually, if you want calorie-rich food that doesn’t stimulate an insulin response (beyond the bare minimum required for life), then fat is your go-to energy source. It contains 9 kcal/g, whereas carbohydrate contains only 4 kcal/g. So if you need, say, 1500 non-protein calories, would it be easier to get that from 167 g of fat, or from 375 g of digestible carbohydrate (i.e., not including the fibre that comes along with the digestible carbs)?

#21

My point was that I find it hard to eat fat (especially the fat on meats) or even lean meats if I don’t have some plant-based side dish or condiments. I take a few bites and I’m done or nauseated. I just can’t force it down unless the plants accompany it!

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #22

Since the point of a ketogenic diet is to lower insulin by restricting carbohydrate, you should perhaps consider returning to a high-carb, low-fat diet. A high-carb, high-fat diet is going to cause the fat to be stored and then trap it in the fat cells, which is one of the jobs that elevating insulin is intended to accomplish (think of a bear eating berries in the fall to get fat for winter hibernation).

#23

Why would you suggest this since it is perfectly possible to eat plants as part of a low carb diet? Some low carb diets are even vegetarian. I have been in ketosis consistently for the last 3 years. Strange comment from an Admin…

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #24

It would probably depend on how much digestible carbohydrate you require to be able to tolerate fat. If you can manage to tolerate the fat you need on 20 g/day of carbohydrate, then well and good.

I was just recalling posts common here when I first joined, to the effect that a high-carbohydrate, high-fat diet is the worst of all possible combinations, because it promotes fat storage, not fat mobilisation. And even a vegan keto diet is still low-carbohydrate and high-fat. So it might still not provide enough carbohydrate for you to be able to tolerate the fat.

Or perhaps I am missing something here? That is certainly possible. :grin: