For those considering TKD / CKD or some variation and your A1C

#25

But one still can stay lean on it if they just use up the energy eaten… But indeed, as far as I know, it’s not a good woe for many (probably most) people. It’s for the ones who can pull it off I suppose.

A little vegs can help a lot with fat as I experienced. It’s surely very individual how much carbs are needed to eat much fat. My SO (HCHF for life, it seems) needs a lot. He loves fat but he has problems with it without a significant amount of carbs (he doesn’t get satiated that way - only belatedly).
I used to need “filler” for my carbs, that was mostly vegs on my original, vegetarian keto (40g net carbs a day, it was very little vegs as I needed carbs for other things too but still a significant volume and it “soaked up” a lot of fat). My first carnivore trial was lowish-fat because I got nauseous without my usual volume, the fat was a too big part of my meal even if it wasn’t any more than before in grams or percentage. It only lasted for a few days but some people may need more time…? Or they just need their plants. I merely needed lower-fat for a while at that point. And I couldn’t handle greasy food, i.e. much added fat. So there are so many factors when it comes to handling the proper amount of fat.
But for me, it was the volume. It was fine using just a few plant carbs with a lot of fat as long as the plant was very low-carb and especially when raw so the volume was big enough. Too bad I always hated most green leaves… But I always loved and ate much fat, the minuscule amount of vegs keto allowed without using green leaves was enough.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #26

That’s not actually true. There are documented cases of obese people eating less food (less calories) than lean people and still putting on fat. It’s even more visible in the case of rats and mice who have been bred to be obese. One researcher observed that the animals he studied put on fat, even when half-starved. So there is something else going on, besides simply the caloric value of the food we eat.

Gary Taubes discusses the science in this lecture, among others:

#27

Wow, I wish I could do this!

So, in previous posts you mentioned eating broccoli and other healthy, keto veggies. Did you feel those were affecting you badly? How did you know?

(Shannon) #28

Sorry to be pedantic, but are you saying that when your reserves are topped off (e.g. during high carb intake, yes?), you are typically 10lbs heavier than when depleted? What time frame are you talking about here, within a week or a longer stretch? That does seem like a bigger gap than I would have expected.

As one who has messaged you about this, I do get curious about the details, so I appreciate you providing those here. I’ve been experimenting a little bit with pre-loading about 36g of Cyclic Dextrin before my workout. I’m not exactly doing “explosive” training, but usually mixing cardio with about 35-40 minutes of weights (either actual weights or using body weight for squats, step-ups, etc.). I’m unsure if I need to add some carbs post-workout to this. Anyway, I just need to keep trying stuff because as I mentioned, I’m about to be in training for a summer backpacking trip in the mountains and really need to get my endurance up.

#29

Yup!, for (me) from loaded up vs nearly empty when not putting in the carbs it’s around a 10lb difference for me, but how much it is for each person is really down to how much muscle you have, and then there’s other factors like simple subcutaneous water storage, which you obviously don’t want.

Possibly, the preworkout carbs are mainly a workout fuel, but can also contribute to glycogen stores depending on how much is around that you’re not burning off, post workout carbs are mainly going to go towards glycogen replenishment. They’re both beneficial, which is why I wound up on a hybrid of both TKD and CKD, I wanted the benefit of both of those. Just takes a while to find your limit of what you can take in, burn, reload with and then not have them spillover and possibly store as fat.

I’d assume if you’re adding a little under 40g, then doing both 45mins of weight training, plus cardio you’re probably burning all that off, 40g is a very small amount, remember, can’t think of it with Keto 20g brain, as you’re playing to a different strategy.

Also, on heavy workout days, don’t be affriad to hit yourself with more just to see how you feel during the workout and after, it’s highly unlikely you’d totally reload yourself in any one sitting, and even if you did, you burn off liver glycogen very quickly. Plus once your muscles get it, they don’t give it back, so you don’t have to worry about that end of of working against ketosis later.

#30

Hi Wendy, back when I did try to reinstate a few vegetables, before I properly learned the bad side to them, I discovered it brought back my joint aches. I also noticed an increase in brain fog, poorer memory and focus. So a WOE, it appears, for my body anyway, consisting of animal meat and fat appears the best I can do for myself, it is what my body wants and feels most comfortable with. Lucky for me I love eating meat, and fatty meat at that. I can’t even wrap my head around people having a hard time to let certain foods go, if they cause inflammation. Because, to be free of inflammation and pain, that is the quality of life right there, and feeling that your body is healing itself. Of course, we’re all individual and where our journey takes us is different for us all, our goals, our incentives, the benefits we reap, the time it takes to heal, and so on.

#31

Do what works for you, but many people don’t want to just give up because of some pushback. If you used to be able to eat a food, and now can’t…Why? You’re still you right? So what changed?

I was diagnosed lactose intolerant TWICE by different docs, at different practices. Played stupid with the second one and didn’t tell them about the first time years back. Also had bad issues with certain veggies, many onions (which I love) broccoli, peas, they’d bloat the life out of me, cause me actual pain, the bathroom end of it was complete hell. Dealt with that for a long time.

Getting on raw milk proved to me I didn’t have a lactose issue, but other dairy destroyed me. The veggies that got me were the ones I really liked.

Long story short, very out of whack gut bacteria, and two different virus’ I didn’t know I had causing a larger than normal methane buildup when I’d eat certain things. No mainstream doc would have figured that out. I’m eating all of it again, no problems. I’d rather fix the problem than work around it, that leads to a bad ending when I can’t eat anything anymore. Not trashing anybody that does that, but if I didn’t do all the stuff I did, without question not only would I still not be eating them, I’m sure the list would have gotten larger by now.

#32

Hi lfod14, I too seemed to handle the raw milk well. My body seemed to enjoy it. But my skin didn’t. I have both facial roseaca and occular roseaca, and I gave up the long term antibiotics I were taking to heal my gut. So my roseaca flared up, badly. I decided to give up the raw milk and my grassfed butter for a while to see if the roseaca would calm down. But I do see your and others’ side of it, and there is sense in your argument. It has been in my thoughts too, that if one gives up too many foods, will one be able to at some point reinstate them or are the enzymes to digest them then lost forever, and I don’t have an answer to that question. But my body has no interest in fruits or vegetables. Raw, grassfed dairy is a different matter. And my hope is, if my skin would start to calm down and heal over time, I can reinstate both grassfed butter and grassfed cheese. Potentially also the raw grassfed milk. At the moment I am replacing the butter with beef tallow/dripping, as I believe animal fats are so important. My roseaca remains frustratingly stubborn, but with regards to my health generally, my lipoedema and lymphedema have both noticeably improved, with better lymphatics, no more swelling and not a single bruise on my legs in sight, and I used to have so many. The skin on my hands is smooth where it used to be really dry. And that tells me my body is trying to heal. It may just take a long time, and it may be it is healing other issues first and I will see the benefits in my skin on my face the last. My body apart from the roseaca is doing well.

I am curious though lfod14, how did you heal your gut? This is what I’m attempting to do as well as I believe all my ailments, my auto immune issues all stem from the gut. And I can’t see it healing over the night, more likely it could take years. How long did it take you to heal?

#33

Oh maybe I wasn’t clear enough, I see it now reading the quoted sentence. I meant that it is a thing, possibly not for everyone but for some people. I know it’s true for some people and it’s quite logical and obvious too or else the HCHF masses would balloon up. They simply eat little enough and slim down and stay slim on HCHF, possibly even if they very easily gain fat.
If one has problems with HCHF, it’s not for them, sure but it doesn’t mean it’s the same for everyone.

And of course things are individual and there are lean people eating a ton and staying slim while there are fat people eating modestly and gaining, the human body is very complex.

I merely was against the idea that HCHF causes storing (gaining) fat not just temporarily in general. It may do that (just like keto can do that if one eats too much. not for everyone but it happens) and it may not, it depends. There are several factors and many of them are individual.

(Doug) #34

Good example of the individual finding their best way forward. :+1: