Fiber and carnivore

science
(Eric) #1

I’ve been keto for more than two years (with tremendous results) and since January I’ve been on a “mostly” carnivore diet (“mostly” means all carnivore except I’ve been eating peanut butter and nuts multiple times a week) in combination to switching my workout to heavy weights (deadlifts, squats, etc) — I’ve put on substantially muscle in four months with just these two changes. As you can see, I’m willing to try new diets for health: i even tried a vegan keto last year for a few months but felt awful and stopped. My plan with carnivore was to pulse it several times per year, and then go back to a more balanced keto diet, but I’ve enjoyed eating carnivore and stayed on it.

My question is about fiber: I know we don’t need fiber — people have been strict carnivore for decades and are perfectly healthy. However, I am interested in going beyond this to also pursue longevity (with good health). Could these people live longer if they ate fiber as well? There are studies out there showing a significant statistical relationship between fiber intake and all-cause mortality. I’ve also heard others say these studies are designed to push an “all plant agenda”. I am thinking of a diet essentially carnivore, but then throw in zero-carb veggies on top like spinach and broccoli to get the fiber (I guess for our gut micro biome).

Is there a good (and unbiased) explanation for why fiber doesn’t matter for longevity / all-cause-mortality? And if it does matter, does my simplistic diet idea seem to make sense?

I also want to add that I’m not a vegan “plant” (pun intended) here to try to stir up trouble. Just a guy trying to get my head around this. I’ve already made the decision to be low-carb / keto for the rest of my life. Just looking to make it better.

Thanks.

Increasing fibre/carbs?
(KM) #2

Part of the problem with the association between fiber and all cause mortality is that this is studied in people eating SAD. It has been said that fiber is not important for the human, but for the human gut bugs. The microbiome of people eating a ketogenic or carnivore diet may be quite different, and some studies have pointed to the diet itself being of great benefit to the microbiome.

As with so many studies, it’s very difficult to extrapolate data to people on long-term keto/carni. I think most people here eat or avoid fiber for how it makes them feel, personally. Do you find yourself uncomfortable without it?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #3

As Jason Fung has said, “Carbs are poison and fibre is the antidote. If you’re not eating the poison, why would you need the antidote?”

(Eric) #4

Thanks, @kib1. For me personally, I feel fine eating fiber — none of the bloating/etc. that many people describe. Then again, I have a cast iron stomach and have eaten pretty much anything and been pretty much fine ( a few bouts of food poisoning when adventure traveling — and once in NYC at a Chinese lunch buffet — but even when everyone else is almost doubled over I’m all good); it’s probably why I was heavy through my 40’s. So I don’t think I have food allergies (except lactose). And I’m questioning if the leaky gut info I keep seeing has substantive scientific backing or is just a theory: I don’t feel different either way. Maybe if someone can specify measurable symptoms that disappear on carnivore, I can see if they change.

On the keto diet I dropped substantial weight and was in great shape for hiking/backpacking/stairs and went to the gym but didn’t lift very heavy weights (for my age and weight) and also (coincidentally) didn’t build real muscle. I went on the carnivore diet in January and at the same time started the heavy weights at the gym, and have built real muscle in that short time (I’m no Adonis, but pretty good for a 52–year-old). Also, with the muscle came some, err… “signs” that perhaps testosterone may have increased (no supplementation). Was it carnivore? Or just the heavy weights? — I’d say Occam’s Razor might suggest it was the weight and not the carnivore diet alone, but who knows.

Regarding micro biome, (skip this paragraph if you don’t want a bit of distasteful description) when I eat fiber, the biggest change is the amount of my “output” and it’s consistency. Carnivore is less “volume” and more “snake-like”. With fiber (but generally all the same meat plus fiber) is much more “volume”, and more “cow patty like”. Also maybe comes out easier.

As more info, I put my dog on keto keto because he was getting cube-shaped, and he dropped almost 30% of body weight with a diet of meat, oil, and fiber (cabbage). I’ve since cut out the fiber and his “business” doesn’t seem any different, in consistency, timing, nor effort.

I’m trying to think long-term. I don’t mind eating either way (albeit low-carb/keto and lots of protein, and not “plant-based”) and I feel great either way. I like the taste of cabbage, salad, broccoli, etc. but it’s not killing me to skip it. If fiber will get me 10% more years, I’ll eat broccoli and spinach by the bushel full — no trouble (actually easier). If eating fiber is interfering with the benefits of carnivore, I’ll make sure I don’t eat fiber. If there’s no data I’ll probably hedge my bets and eat some every few days.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #5

There’s no way to tell, apart from recruiting several thousand people, randomising them to carnivore diets with or without fibre, and observing them for the rest of their lives.

Since the human race, from radioisotopic analyses, seems to have evolved primarily, if not exclusively, eating meat, I’d say that fibre is not necessary to the proper human diet.

(Eric) #6

I hear you, and am a huge fan of Dr. Tung (and do fairly regular four-day fasts, although not in the four months I’ve been trying to add muscle). I still eat some carbs (20g per day?) in peanut butter and nuts, and a generous glass of red wine every few days (need my vices; better than smoking). So if fiber is the “antidote” to carbs in the gut, then I don’t really need fiber. But if it’s the antidote to glucose in the blood: my body makes glucose in my liver, so perhaps fiber somehow does something to mitigate negative effects of excess blood glucose?

Also, there is some discussion of insoluble fiber producing increases ketones in the blood. Not sure if there is scientific backing for this either, but if it’s true, fiber could help “supercharge” my diet.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #7

Twenty grams/day of carbohydrate is not carnivore, it is keto. And the reports from forum members who eat keto are mixed. Some find that they absolutely need fibre, others find that they must absolutely avoid fibre (because it makes their bowel problems worse), and most of us find that fibre is of no effect one way or the other. You’ll have to experiment to find which category you fall into.

I think that trying to make decisions on the basis of increasing one’s longevity is a red herring. First, there’s no way to tell; all the research suggesting what might increase longevity has to be done on animals, and there’s no way to say whether the results apply to human beings. Second, living a long, miserable life is not preferable to a shorter, but happy and healthy life. In my view, anyway.

(Eric) #8

Regarding “carnivore”: I’m eating nuts and peanut butter but other than that all meat (mostly red meat, some chicken, and eggs, and really the vast majority of what I eat). It’s not really what keto people are doing. I’m mostly calling it “lazy carnivore” (“peanut better carnivore might be a better description) but since I’m eating basically no veggies and mostly red meat I’m not sure what else to call it. “Carnivore” seems to capture it better although it isn’t pure. Also, some days it’s zero carbs, and some days it’s 20-30g. I’m also drinking coffee so many people would call than “not carnivore” as well just for that, and I’ve had a few glasses of wine per week so another ding against me (I believe Karl Goldkamp is in this camp). On the days I eat only meat I can taste my drinking water is very sweet so likely more in ketosis, but I’m not testing although considering it; I get my blood ketones done when I get my basic metabolic panels and they’re above zero. I’m fine with whatever this is, as long as it is working (since I feel great, my hair has become slightly less grey, I’m more muscular and lean, and look younger than my age). Paul Saladino has his version of “carnivore” (with a lot more carbs per day than me); I have this version. I can simply call it “low carb” like I do outside the “community” so I don’t catch flack, and I can do that here as well. With deepest respect: now with this additional info, what would you call my ad box diet?

Regarding longevity, I respectfully disagree: while we don’t have human longevity studies — no million-person highly-powered 50-year peer-reviewed clinical trial with a specific endpoint (will never happen) — animal studies across multiple species should start to give indications of the directions we might consider. And finding the milestone bio markers in human clinical trials suggested from those animal studies is an even better guide. There is likely an answer (there generally is) but we don’t know it yet, yes, but we’re starting to see through the fog in some cases.

Regarding being frail in my “terminal decade” (Peter Attia): I am trying (and succeeding) to put on substantial muscle so I’ll have something to draw on in my terminal decade. I’m not trying to look a certain way (although I’d be lying to say that’s not a fun secondary benefit) but trying to create a cylinder of muscle through my abdomen/back/chest/hips so I can move fluidly and bend/carry without concern. I watched my father wither away with self-imposed sarcopenia; I ain’t going out that way. I see this as a “longevity hack” but it is really healthspan and not lifespan. I think most longevity practitioners are missing this.

(Eric) #9

Again, with deepest respect, I have never bought into the anthropological arguments. Sure, there plenty of indication from tools that we were/are hunters, but the evidence gets slim when moving toward absolutes. Much of this becomes “stories” I keep hearing from all sides. For instance I hear that since we stem from other primates, we can all be healthy vegans. Or because Inuit peoples liven on meat we can as well. All of these things may be true (and likely are true) but that doesn’t tell us what our “optimum” diet should be (and of course this depends on what your desired outcome is: mine is to be “young-feeling” for the longest amount of time). With your desired outcome in hand, we can find bio markers which we need to hit/be at over time, and work backwards for how to generate this outcome. I enjoy reading the research in longevity; much of it is quack science and some of it is very interesting. I’m will to safely “biohack” as is everyone on this forum: your likely eating a diet directly opposed by the majority of doctors, yet it works for you. I’m the same way, and trying to do so to achieve healthy (athletic, high-mobility, mentally focused) long lifespan in th best way I can. For me: not drugs, but several light/safe supplements, lots of exercise, and my diet (whatever you’d prefer me to call it).

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #10

It depends on the arguments. Radioisotopic assays are hard to argue with, when discussing the components of our ancestors’ diet.

The argument from our hominid ancestors implies that we have the same type of guts as they do (they were hind-gut fermenters), and it is easy to demonstrate that this is not true. We can eat carbohydrates, but we do not have the digestive apparatus to handle large amounts of fibre, which our chimp and gorilla cousins still have. Anatomically modern humans lost our pre-modern ancestors’ large guts and developed large brains. This seems to be related to (or possibly caused by, or possibly caused) our ability to digest fatty acids and to enter ketosis easily (we are practically the only mammal that can enter ketosis without being in the end-stages of starvation).

There are a number of hypotheses that try to explain whether our guts shrank because we became meat-eaters or the reverse, but our ability to subsist on mostly or entirely meat is undeniable. The fact that beef contains all the essential amino acids in all the correct proportions, while plant foods do not, seems to argue against a primarily plant-based diet as being proper for human beings. Even the high-carb, low-fat dietary guidelines from the U.S. government describe beef as the “high-quality reference protein” to which all other protein sources are compared.

Yet people tend to believe that the optimum diet is what they want to believe it is, and I don’t exclude myself from that. Nevertheless, based on what I’ve learned, I think my odds are pretty good of remaining reasonably healthy until I die, whenever that might be. Length of lifespan is not a consideration for me.

So the upshot is: believe what you want to believe, and eat what you want to eat. When you are in your nineties, please let us know how it worked for you. That people can live to an advanced age on an all-meat diet has been demonstrated. Whether consuming dietary fibre would have extended their lifespan is indeterminable.

#11

I am with @kib1 here… The studies weren’t done on people eating even remotely like me so the result is pretty much useless and I feel fine with any amount of fiber so I just eat the way I like…

I rather bully my body to forget this silliness :smiley: I want to live over 130 years very much but I hate and refuse to consume green leaves and hate compromises too :smiley:
But seriously, it makes no sense to me that I need to force-feed myself with something my body and tastebuds strongly dislike to be healthy… Of course, it’s me, you don’t dislike eating like that… So you are willing to do it on the off chance that it helps even if you don’t feel it. But we could do zillion things on the off chance it would help and some of them contradict each other… I simply don’t believe in the importance of fiber for me. It seems fiber (or lack of it) is very important for some people but I am close to zero now and had times when I ate a lot, or less and it never changed a thing. So I suppose it doesn’t matter to me. But we can’t really know as there are no studies applying to our woe… (But even if there would be some extensive, not biased research resulting in some positive effect of fiber, I would attribute it to the people who benefits from it and still would believe I am not among them.)

I wouldn’t think eating some carbs causes excess blood glucose needing fiber… Anyway, our body makes glucose even with 0 carbs, it’s needed… Or is that different? I don’t know but it’s tiny and needed, I wouldn’t call it excessive…

Eating nuts isn’t carnivore, eating 20g carbs is totally carnivore if all the carbs come from animal stuff. Just saying. Almost 20g is very normal for me from carnivore food. I have lower days, of course but being higher isn’t unusual.

I agree, that’s why I won’t eat spinach ever :smiley: (But I do want my longevity too. If I KNEW spinach is important for it, I would learn to like it somehow, my hedonist brain might be able to pull it off. I am glad I don’t believe I need to change my taste nearly so much to eat my realistically ideal diet.) But Eric has no problem with it and there is the oiff chance it helps. I probably would decide based on what makes me sleep better :wink: Even if we don’t know what is better but we believe one is that or possibly that and definitely not worse AND our body is neutral, choosing that may be a good idea. Even if it doesn’t help… But might! And doesn’t hurt. It makes sense to me.

Yeah I don’t like when my almost carnivore eating is called simply keto as it’s quite different from the plant-filled normal keto… There is “ketovore” but I never was compatible with the term and I am unsure what it means, actually but hardly what I do… BUT neither you or I eat carnivore, it’s a fact. We may be close and it may be enough (I highly doubt I need to do it pure, my body seems to be happy with extreme low net carbs from plants and even the occasional stray is fine) but it’s not.
Apropos extreme low net carbs from plants… If I wanted to eat fiber, I could just eat fiber without the icky, carby leaves. It even has some benefits in my baked goods. It’s not like I have many carnivore options when I need some powder-like substance… Total carbs never seemed to matter a thing to me. I don’t feel different, it doesn’t affect my ketosis, apparently… I do try to stay close to carnivore and I don’t want to eat sweeteners often but fibers seem harmless to me. So here and there, when it really makes my life easier and better, I use them.

Coffee is pretty much allowed for carnivores on this forum, we aren’t so strict and coffee is too popular. It’s like spice. Obviously plant matter, not a carnivore item but it’s just a little, common tiny extra.
When I go farther and bring various condiments, cocoa and even tiny veg as my little extras, well that’s my carnivore-ish, it doesn’t fit into the most relaxed carnivore… So be it. If a tiny cocoa keeps me from drinking coffee (I really want to quit it. it doesn’t go well) or wanting to quit, I am fine with it.
I personally consider tea as fine as coffee on carnivore. Plant but well, we don’t EAT it and it’s tiny like spice… But I do carnivore-ish only, not proper relaxed carnivore so I don’t need to worry about it.

My attitude exactly :slight_smile: I do push proper carnivore sometimes out of curiosity and train myself, sometimes it helps me to be stricter than necessary… But I don’t force myself into a box I don’t feel right. I can’t, actually. As I don’t see the point to be uncomfortably strict when it doesn’t eve do any noticeable difference.

(Eric) #12

Convincing stuff, @PaulL. Much appreciated. I obviously need to do more work on this. At the moment — and mostly in-line with your thesis — I’ll continue my “mostly carnivore” diet as it seems to work for me.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #13

Hey, if it ain’t broke, you don’t need to fix it! :grin:

(Brian) #14

I hope it’s OK to post a link to a video. It seems relevant to the discussion. It’s about a woman who’s been carnivore for pretty much her whole life. If you look at the video, you’d probably guess her to be in her mid 50’s or so, maybe 60. She’s 82.

I’ll let you decide if that even matters to you but I’ve been noticing this appearance of youth among numerous people in the carnivore community.

(Eric) #15

I definitely noticed that many carnivores look younger, with healthy skin and more lean muscle. It’s one of the reasons I felt comfortable taking the leap (partially). I detect better skin on myself, and I think my grey hair stopped spreading, but I didn’t plan for this and have lousy lighting comparisons so my before:after photos are highly variable. The outward appearance (looks and movement) is probably a good measure of health; I seem to remember a doctor on a podcast (Shawn baker or Dr Berry) mentioning that doctors’ notes used to include an assessment of appearance such as “looks older than age” but don’t now due to liability. So we’re in agreement here.

BUT…a lot of this is antidotal: “I saw a guy on a podcast”; “my neighbor did x”; etc. I was looking for perhaps a more clinical assessment of the potential necessity of fiber and it’s value in all cause mortality for carnivores. Rat/mice studies, dogs, etc, (but non in vitro cell cultures; not of interest to me). I already know the value of fiber for SAD eaters in all cause mortality — it’s a statistically significant benefit, and as a SAD eater you’d probably be foolish not to eat lots of fiber. But I don’t eat SAD, and I’d gather you don’t either, nor likely the vast majority of people on this site.

There may be zero information for this: I can’t find any, but know there are people who have dug into this for far longer than I, and who may be far more knowledgeable than I who’s saw some data, a report/paper, a detailed podcast from a reputable scientist. I’m getting the sense from everyone’s answer that what I’m looking for might not yet be available. I guess I’m not surprised, given the disgusted looks I get from medical professionals regarding my carnivore diet.

(Alec) #16

There is zero appetite from anyone to study people on the carnivore diet… there’s no money in it, and it is viewed as extreme by the powers-that-be. Pretty close to zero chance of this changing any time soon. So if you are looking for RCTs on carnivores, I think you’ll be waiting a long time.

Best evidence of efficacy is how you feel on carnivore. I know that carnivore has made me feel the best I have for 30 years. That’s all I need to know…

(Brian) #17

I kinda think you’re right about it not being “available”, at least like we’d like it to be, with legitimate studies and such. The money today doesn’t want to go in that direction and wants to support their favorites, diets like the “whole food plant based” diet. It seems to be more acceptable to hear that phrase than the word “vegan” these days. Lots of fiber in those groups and yet I have yet to be convinced there is any true advantage in longevity.

There is a group I can think of that I spent a few decades as a part of (I am not a part of them any longer) that liked to tout their living 7 years longer than the average population. The “good” ones were plant based / vegans. Funny thing is, they tended to look good for a while and then totally fall apart. They had heart issues, they mostly had false teeth, they had eye troubles, they had strokes, cancer, and actually a higher incidence of Alzheimer’s than the general population. And despite their seminars where they suggested that people could live to be a healthy 120 years old, none of them ever did. Rather than appearing healthy, many of them take on the pale, gray, emaciated look of “death warmed over”. They have the “talk” down pat. Reality, however, just doesn’t seem to follow along for long enough to see the promised results. I’ve been a pall bearer at way too many of their funerals. I knew them personally. Sad, really, and most of them very sincere… very sincerely wrong.

I know it didn’t exactly answer your question.

(Eric) #18

No, but I’m with you: I see the same trends, and have gone “mostly” carnivore myself. I’m just trying to stop any holes in my own theories. I keep questioning myself as a means to not think I have many of the answers. I feel good and that’s a positive. But I felt good on keto, so not sure what can objectively say I feel different on carnivore versus keto (but both feel much better than SAD). I’ve put on a lot more muscle on carnivore versus keto (was the original purpose) and have seen …err, “evidence of positive male hormonal changes” for my age but I also lifted much heavier weights at the same time so my n=1 trial can’t separate these two. I suspect it is actually from the weight lifting because I took a 12 day break (vacation without a gym) while staying mostly carnivore and some of the benefits flagged. Just my observations.

(Brian) #19

Just outta curiosity, Eric, have you gone down the “oxalates” bunny trail?

I’ve been leaning more heavily towards carnivore eating these days, not quite there yet, but sometimes there just because that’s what I happened to eat that day. But I know when I started eating keto, I was pumpin’ in a lotta stuff I thought was good for me, almond flour, spinach, maybe a few other things, that I’ve been finding out might not have been so great for me. Some of that has waned naturally, like the almond flour, since we don’t feel like we need all of the keto treats all of the time anymore. We tend to grow our own veggies and spinach has always been temperamental so we just didn’t have it often. And… now that veggies are becoming more of a condiment than a food group, I’ve been kinda wondering whether I have a lot of sequestered oxalates that are gonna come out and pound me one of these days. LOL!

It’s been a while since I’ve been here so I might have missed some major conversations. Just wondered.

(Eric) #20

I’m probably a noob in that area. I listen to a lot of podcasts when at the gym or walking (or climbing stairs) and virtually all are doctors talks. I went into the Dr Gundry rabbit hole regarding oxalates but came to the conclusion that his recommendations of protein were great for someone who wanted to be lean and not have a lot of muscle (this seemed a bad idea for someone who saw his father wither away physically). And as far as his oxalate recommendations, it seems to me easier to just be carnivore to avoid these. Now I still eat nuts so I obviously didn’t listen too well, but at some point there’s so much garbage being thrown in every direction that I can’t see the gems. So I’ve tried to simplify where I can, listen to my body and results, and make it work while still trying to figure some of this stuff out as it comes up for me.