Female recomposition with IF - TMAD instead of OMAD - depending on your age/health?

protein
omad
tmad
female-if
edema

#1

In my efforts to maximize my recomposition at age 52, I’ve found three things to be quite synergistic and easy to do:

  1. Fatty coffee: I did full on fatty-collagen or egg coffee for my first couple months keto while getting “fat adapted” and later learned that it probably helped reset my leptin levels nicely. These days I just aim for half the fat in my fatty coffee (1tblsp butter + 1tblsp coconut oil + HWC) and no protein of any kind in it so as to extend my fast - which is a pleasant thing to sip when starting my day late morning - and helps me have a grounded, happy brain until I’m ready to eat later.

  2. Supplementing with dry Ginger capsules for nutrient absorption & circulation as well as cortisol & insulin reduction (I now take 4 capsules a day minimum - and have written quite a bit on the subject elsewhere here) - and,

  3. Increasing my hyper low protein intake to a truly moderate level of protein has been a big deal for me (I was a vegetarian for 25 years of my adult life and ate only ‘lighter’ proteins like yogurt/cheese/eggs/nuts - not heavy hunks o’ meat. The last 4 years I’ve been eating meat and learning to eat more of it lol). On my IF (intermittent fasting) days 4-5 days a week I used to just do a big OMAD (one meal a day) as it’s SOoooo convenient - but I’d have a hard time eating more than 30 gram serving of protein. (And I read that the body may well only utilize 20-30 grams of protein per meal, the rest simply mostly gets eliminated - which I tend to believe, as ancient humans didn’t sit around gorging on protein all day, they walked some 10+ miles a day and had many meaningful activities). I also know that till after midlife, in female neurology there are some pretty primal stress triggers and adaptive responses that mean many of us may actually have better recomposition on TMAD (two meals a day within a 4-8 hour eating window) - except certain endurance athletes, some of whom do better with more fasting, but I’m not an endurance athlete.

So, I increased my animal protein to 60-70grams/day - delivered via the two servings in my TMAD life - rather than the previous working hard to get in 30-40 grams/day in one meal. This larger quantity of nourishment boosts my lipolysis nicely it seems, though I moderate the fat as I want my body to use its own fat!

And it’s also noticeably helping my water clearing - even speeding the mosquito bite processes on my ankles.

Though I oftentimes see people associate edema only with too much salt or not enough water - there can be more to it.

And then I learned that when protein (especially albumin) levels in your blood go too low, the colloidal osmotic pressure will decrease and allow fluid to escape from blood vessels into your tissues, resulting in edema or swelling of the hands, feet, ankles, knees and/or belly. Of course, such a conceptual framework of protein levels is based in the HCLF typical SAD diet - and there are factors with keto and within individuals which may mean that blood levels of albumin can be fine on less protein servings.

Provided you are an otherwise healthy keto woman (ie, no medications, no liver disease, good immunity & digestion, good stress management,), edema can be a temporary phase before a new water release. From what I can tell, for some females who are not in post-menopause - protein intake plays a vital role in helping swooshing, along with water & salt!

More on these things in Stefani Ruper’s article “Shattering the Myth of Fasting for Women: A Review of Female-Specific Responses to Fasting in the Literature” - she has a “paleo” rather than keto perspective, but many relevant points. And Dave Asprey’s article Intermittent Fasting For Women. As for post-menopausal women (2 years past last menstrual cycle - which is often age 54 or older) - I suspect that in a metabolically healed body in well established ketosis there is much less hormonal variability in play and a lot more flexibility for OMAD and easy-peasy extended fasting with least stress.

Hope this helps :sunflower: :bouquet: :rose:


#2

Thank you again @SlowBurnMary for another enlightening post, which I always look forward to reading :smile:
I’m also 52, hit the menopause at 50 (that was a real brick wall for me) and despite taking HRT (had to due to out of control BGs and being T1D), haven’t felt great until started keto :smile:

The ginger capsules have worked for me but I’ve decided to up the dose to 4/day instead of 2, and I’m definitely going to try TMAD. Normally I do OMAD as am never hungry. Been experimenting and I’ve realised that the more I eat (within reason) the more weight I lose.

One issue which has started for me is erratic bp readings in last week, low to high plus lightheaded when bending over. Suspect may be electrolytes but GP wont do bloods until I give him another full week of readings. Do you have any experience of this?


(Vanessa) #3

I’m 3 years post-menopausal so thanks for this! I also find a little extra protein goes a long way towards satiety for me.


#4

You’re very welcome!!! I’m honored to know that my post is helpful in some small way on our adventures in self-healing!

Erratic bp is not something I have experience with - that does NOT sound fun. Hmm, electrolytes would definitely make sense, as so much is changing in the body, and it takes a lot of energy to make these changes. Electrolytic conversion, etc. :smiley: So attending to that as a basic prerequiste is essential. I start every morning with a cup of salt water (called ‘sole’) myself, made from ancient himalayan cave salt which comforts my soul…

Hopefully the electrolytes will fix you up in no time! And in the very least get you in the best state possible for blood tests and any medication tweaking. Would be great if you could work with a GP that is keto-friendly for max support. Best wishes on everything :sunflower:


#5

Update on Ginger dosage - after around 3 months on the high end of dosing, and having dealt with whatever stagnation and/or inflammation in my gut and having definite shrinkage - I started to feel increasing persistence in the warming/activating gut feelings, and the need to reduce the dose.

So I am now taking only 1-2 capsules per day, usually one w/ fatty coffee and one with a meal.

Belly is definitely changing, and it seems the Ginger sensitization has also helped with core muscle awareness - how I gird myself with my muscles.

It’s amazing how contracting the belly button area pulls in a bunch o’ gut. And I’m pretty sure I have a diastasis recti (separated ab muscles which can happen postpartum or due to certain kinds of physical overexertion, the latter being my case as have always prided myself on my heavy lifting and furniture moving… ). When the weather is cooler, I plan to follow the Tupler Technique transverse abs binding & special exercises protocols to help the muscles back into place.


#6

Hi @SlowBurnMary I’m 51, perimenopausal and have been trying to do OMAD but struggling with it. I now find it much easier doing TMAD so it’s really good to read your explanation for this, makes so much sense! I hope you don’t mind me asking what you would typically eat in a day and the times you eat? I know we are all different and it’s important to do what is right for your own body but I am interested in what other women in my own age range are doing - so much information seems to be aimed at much younger women.
Thank you.


#7

Well, am also aiming for variability, so every day’s different. And, after being well-established in fat adaptation and hormonal balancing, I’ve gotten more flexible with my food choices (still keeping to around 70grams or much less total carbs per day) while maintaining recomposition progress.

Of the two meals, first meal of the day after slowly sipping my triple strength tea & cream is often either:

a 10 minute keto porridge (indian style “upma” with ingredients that are pre-chopped and ready to go from the fridge - fried spices and curry leaves/onion/fresh chilli and ginger in plenty of ghee or coconut oil, with a few tblsps coconut/almond flour and a cup of hot water mixed in - and at the end stirring in either 3-4 scrambled eggs or a bunch of raw grassfed whey for protein, with lots of salt, and lemon juice, and yogurt on top)…

or…

a no brainer meal of a medium apple/pear with tasty pecan pie almond butter or bleu cheese dressing dip or ranch sour cream (I’ve come to appreciate Dr. Lustig’s explanation that the carbs/fructose in fibrous fruit are held in the fiber and not dumped into the bloodstream, they travel to the large intestine to be eaten by good bacteria and have a minimal impact on insulin in a carb sense, so, after my first keto year I started to experiment w/ granny smith apples and d’anjou pears and have really enjoyed them along with continued body recomposition progress).

or…

Second meal is usually meat-based with a good 30-40gr protein serving along with some kind of delicious sauteed spiced veg or salad and keto crackers or almond flour bread/crust with condiments like blue cheese dressing, or yogurt or a little pico de gallo or pickled/marinated veg. Either indian, italian, french style.

My complete protein (animal-based) intake ranges per day from 40-70 grams a day - as I don’t count incomplete protein, and I also have natural IF that sometimes goes up to 24 hours.

To get collagen in (for long term connective tissue care and ageing support), I try to add a mug of bone broth & Vit. C (\for collagen uptake) to sip in the early evening before dinner a few days a week. In summer, I postpone my first meal longer, and often instead of porridge will make a smoothie with grassfed raw whey/avocado/ice water/berries/collagen/salt/erythritol/stevia.

That’s pretty much it during weekdays. On weekends I do try to make something special like a sweet keto pancake with berries and bacon or sausage - or I enjoy keto pizza.

But there are ways to eat that are much much simpler too!


(Bridget) #8

@SlowBurnMary (or anyone else around) - just wondering what the dry Ginger caps were you were taking? Culinary ginger capped - or supplement ginger pre-capped (if there is even a difference).

I have cortisol overload from PTSD. Keto only allows me to maintain (not reduce) and I’d really like my body back. The only weight loss I get are from extended fasts (48hrs minimum, best is 48+ hours).

Many thanks!


#9

I take Nature’s Way, non-GMO and GMP certified Ginger caps - nowadays they can be found even at drugstores in the U.S. Yes, the encapsulated form keeps it very fresh and easy to take.

Ginger will help you! It’s helped me very much. Also for PTSD and healing the nervous system, consider taking grassfed beef liver caps a few times a week with meals, if you don’t cook it or freeze diced raw for supplementation. Ginger & Liver are an amazing combo for me. There are other adaptogenic combos - but Ginger & Liver are more familiar to many folks.

If you use the search bar above right there are lots of Ginger details on this site!

Wishing you much good keto healing and new metamorphosis :sparkles:


(Bridget) #10

Thank you! I’m from NZ so lucky to have good meats and dairy etc, but liver is about the only part I won’t touch yuk! . I’ll pop an order through to iHerb this week for some Ginger.

I’m going to follow up with a Naturopath soon and hopefully get some good herbal support. Something has to change/move soon. :slight_smile:


#11

You’re very welcome!

Funnily enough, the liver capsules I take are from NZ - Antler Farms - 4 a day, several times a week, is a great boost for a key B vitamin. The encapsulated form doesn’t taste or smell or burp liver - highly recommend!


(Bridget) #12

Awesome - can you give info? I’ve just started on Ginger and feeling nice and toasty, but before that did a 50 hr fast and lost 400gms lol … I’m going carnivore for a few days before doing a 24 hour fast and reverting back to TMAD Keto for a few weeks.


#13

Info on what in particular?

Sounds like you’re changing things up, and as long as you’re totally fat-adapted that can be a good thing. (I don’t weigh, I just measure - body recomposition is quite a thing!).


(Bridget) #14

Oh sorry, info re the liver capsules. Re fat adaption, I think I am as much as can be, I was very low carb prior to going Keto again so had no Keto flu or any teething problems really when I started. I swell up and feel terrible on carbs (even “good” ones) so going Keto is a no brainer. I stick to =/- 20g carbs

I believe I struggle with maintaining ketosis though, possibly because the stress hormones. I kept a bit of a log with my last fast and it took 22 hours for Keto pee sticks to register even a trace. I know they’re not reliable but it was also when I felt like I was in ketosis (breath, urine odour, reduced hunger/appetite etc). The next morning the sticks were neg again.

I feel like I need to change things around, it’s good for adaptability - but I would also like to find what is going to work for weight loss since I have 25kg to lose.


#15

I order them from Amazon, if that helps!


#16

Update on my protocols, as have changed it up recently - to keep my body agile and not in ruts. Have been LCHF/keto almost two years, have been 100% fat adapted since around month 6 - and am not IR, do not suffer from food addiction. If you are a newbie, please ignore most of the below.

  1. Have switched to tea instead of coffee for the last few months, Oolong tea in particular (according to Louise Gittelman PhD, it’s low in some the natural toxins that can be found in the soil where tea is grown, and is helpful for recomp). I did this switch because of wanting to see any noticeable effects on recomp from eliminating the substance called ‘cafestol’ which is in coffee. Hard to tell if this is the key thing that is expediting my belly recomp, or if it’s just time, or Ginger, or my excellently random IFing or feasting. Sorry scientists, too many variables - but my subcutaneous belly fat is definitely changing. Getting waterlogged, then swooshing, etc.

  2. Am not making it fatty/bulletproof style often - maybe once a week - because the tea actually is more fragrant without added fat beyond cream. Plus, my keto brainz are good and I don’t really need extra fat that way, prefer to have fatty meals instead. The tea with just cream still holds me well for a few hours more.

  3. Am allowing myself to eat less protein, and not sweating when down to only around 40g/day due to other protein being the incomplete kind from nuts, etc. After reading @Brenda’s comments on protein intake according to IDM - I’ve felt ready and stable enough to lower it, and it’s a great relief - and I don’t feel deprived with less - the protein I eat is very satisifying, and it had often taken a lot of effort for me to reach the recommended 70-80gr/day, as I prefer smaller servings of animal protein and I love spiced fatty veggies!

  4. Since early January have embarked on an exercise and splinting program (evidence-based, from Julie Tupler, RN) to heal the connective tissue down the center of my belly so that the body can support itself better and anchor the belly tissue. After some investigation, and learning how to measure - I realized I have a diastasis recti (separated abs, weak connective tissue and weak transverse muscle due to longtime overexertion injuries). I think the deeply internal exercises and wearing the comfy rehab splint almost 24 hours a day, have helped my belly also move along the water in the tissue effectively - along with slowly moving my abs in towards the center. It’s very interesting!

  5. I mostly am doing random TMAD with various timings of meals - all ending by 8pm - but each week I seem to have one day that turns into a 22-24 hour fast, and OMAD.

  6. For whatever reason - in the last month I dropped another inch from my waist. I’m not imagining it :rofl: even though my belly fat is changing glacially, it is changing.

  7. I also started eating one apple or pear per day many days of the week, with either cheese or almond butter (low-carb doc Robert Lustig MD enlightened me as to how fibrous fruits sequester the fructose, and barely any of it is metabolized). Also have incorporated one teaspoon of raw honeycomb or raw honey with certain weekend brunches, to gladden my heart. It’s very rejuvenating feeling - and I’m glad to take in the protective compounds like anti-oxidants and pectin.

  8. Also am continuing my resistant starch routine many days of the week, using small amounts (2 tblsps) of chilled then ghee-fried white basmati (the only refined thing I eat) which is lovely with most dinner food. Both of these practices are feeding the good bacteria in the large intestine, and my brain and mental equanimity are GREAT.

Seems like I’m doing well fluctuating between very low carb days and low carb days of up to 60-75 gr of mostly whole food carbs. Grateful!

Thought someone might like to know, in case helpful :herb: :avocado: :steakcake: :sheep: :cheese: :fried_egg::hot_pepper:


(Karen) #17

I read your post with interest. I’m 63. I am not insulin resistant. My BMI Is almost in the normal range and 26%.
I’ve been drinking coffee for quite a while since my father died and he liked. First time in my life I’ve been drinking coffee. I think it must be because makes me think of him. I’m slowly switching back to tea as I’ve always liked tea.
The apple a day and rice is something I would be afraid of as I put weight on very easily. I did do your ginger for several months and saw no appreciable change. I also tried dairy free and saw no changes. I keep my protein under 60, and like eating vegetables but keep them close to 20.
Frying my proteins and vegetables in ghee or butter plus occasionally adding heavy whipping cream to my tea keeps fats up.
I’m kind of stuck at 160 to 165 pounds. I am recently retired and thinking about adding some exercise to my day. Your belly band sounds interesting do you have a link?


#18

Interesting thought. I’ve always been pretty tolerant of apples and been able to incorporate maybe 1/2 an apple within daily carb limits. I wonder if there’s a connection to the fructose-fiber theory you mentioned. Pears though taste like syrup to me, so I think I’ll skip those for now. I’ve been off apples completely and pretty strict since the beginning of the year, but am gradually adding in some sweeter things (within carb limits), so I might try some apples again.

I can incorporate small amounts of honey or sugar, too. So it gives me hope that at some point I can increase my carb levels like you have or a bit higher. Not to SAD levels of 300+, just maybe to 100g or so to accommodate more fruit and some things on an occasional basis like oatmeal, desserts, etc.

(I don’t have T2D or pre-diabetes and I’m not severely insulin resistant, so don’t try this at home, kids, unless you have a more resilient metabolism!)


#19

So many factors! I only started the apple a day and RS after much study that abated fears (Grace Liu PhD’s talk on ‘how to build a warrior gut’ and more). Also - a healthy microbiome with flourishing good bacteria comprises about six pounds of those good guys - and so for some, healing the gut may involve gaining a few good pounds of bacteria, not of fat. And those good buddy pounds then in turn produce tons of butyrate which fuels ketosis very nicely and produces BDNF. Quite amazing to me.

I noticed the regular Ginger supplementation took a few months of regular dosing to unlock belly fat - but the fat/water cycles that have ensued have slowly been dropping layers of fat. Being that Ginger is a superfood that works on clearing fibrin, reducing cortisol/insulin, eliminating inflammation, and boosting digestive enzymes among other many things - its impact on bodies may vary wildly depending on what’s needed most by the body, I imagine.

Yum yum yum - how I love things fried in ghee. It gladdens my heart.

The diastasis rehab program is intense, and takes many months of nearly 24/7 splint wearing plus seated belly squeezing/pumping exercises 2-3x a day and back-lying headlifts. It’s great for deep circulation and muscle micro-currents - it does make one look rather radiant :crown: Julie Tupler’s book is Together Tummy, and her website and the 18 week online program she offers covers most everything in the book: www.diastasisrehab.com

Well, I don’t weigh myself - just paying attention to the shrinkage. But your 160-165 pounds with more restored muscle and less fat (like, 26% compared to 36%) is an entirely different figure of gravitas and glamour, and the only thing we can count on in life is Change - of one kind or another :purple_heart:


#20

@SlowBurnMary …Thank you so much for all the information you’ve provided!!! This gives me hope! I hope you don’t mind if I bounce a few things off here, and see if any of it makes sense to you (or anyone else who’s dealt with this nonsense.) First, not be nosy at all, but I am wondering, when you began Keto, were you already in menopause? If so, did the Keto WOE seem to help peri-menopausal symptoms? The reason I ask is because I am almost 52, peri-menopausal, and struggling through the visits from “Aunt Flo”. The pain/cramping is unimaginable. (Childbirth was less painful!) Flow is unbelievable, and would be categorized as menorrhagia. If you, or anyone else here, has dealt with this sort of thing, and started the ginger capsules—did that help the symptoms of pain and bloating? If not, I am curious to find out if you think might help. What I’ve read seems to indicate that ginger helps with circulation…which is great, but I sure don’t want to take anything that might increase the flow.
I’ve been searching the internet like mad this week trying to find things that might help these circumstances- in a non-invasive way. I found some interesting writings on how carbs and sugar can increase the bad prostiglandins- which may be responsible for cramping and excessive bleeding. I reasoned out that if sugar and carbs increase the bad P’s, then the Keto and IF would decrease them. With my current cycle starting this past Thursday, I completed a 40 hour fast from Monday evening through Wednesday at noon. Took in less than 15 NC/day from Wednesday on, and quadrupled my Fish Oil 3-6-9’s for the entire week. (I read that some of the components in fish oil help the good prostaglandins and quash the bad ones.) While I still have massive pain in my right ovary area, the bulk of the cramping is mostly absent right now. So far, the flow has been bad, but not nearly AS bad. Not sure what to attribute the slight improvement to. But, I’ve got a long way to go before I feel better again. The other upside is, I’ve dropped 6.5 pounds since Monday.

So, do you think the ginger capsules might be beneficial in dealing with this? I was interested about the liver capsules too. I raise grass fed beef cattle, and end up making gallons of bone broth- which I take during EF, but I cannot stand beef liver to eat, so the liver capsules sound like an interesting alternative.

Thank you in advance for any help, insight or advice you can lend me!!! I sure am thrilled to have found this thread!!!
Andrea