Fasting is raising blood sugar and kicking me out of ketosis! Is fasting even worth the trouble?

fasting
ketosis
hyperglycemia
(Mike D) #64

Like I previously mentioned back towards the beginning. My Rheumatologist seemed pretty confident in her assertion. She is the specialist that handles auto-immune disease, there is no doctor more qualified than her in this specific area, so there is no reason to move outside of her specialty. When she retired I ran her idea past my next Rheumatologist who confirmed the validity. I have a Primary Care, Endocrinologist, Hepatologist, Hematologist, Orthopedist, Psychologist and Pulmonary doctor all following my progress. I do not need to add anymore doctors, they can handle this just fine. The big picture as well as all of the fine details have been accounted for,

I also closely follow the research of Dr David Sinclair Closely who is a professor of Genetics at Harvard University and is the spear head of longevity and epigenetic research in the USA. As well as Bryan Johnson who is a scientist who has been experimenting with longevity research with his team of 30 doctors. I am pretty sure everyone has the “big picture” covered. I do not really need anyone else’s validation. I’m doing this and unless someone can show me hard data to the contrary than I will stay the course. If I see hard data to the contrary, then I course correct without bias.

(KM) #65

Love me some Bryan Johnson. Now there is a pioneer.

(Bacon enough and time) #66

Let’s not judge one another, shall we? Your level of attention to numbers would drive me insane, and my looseness regarding the numbers would probably freak you out. And yet a ketogenic diet works for both of us. Let’s agree to leave it at that.

The crucial number is the amount of daily carbohydrate intake, because that has the greatest effect on insulin levels. And it is insulin which determines whether the body is in fat-burning mode (low insulin) or sugar-burning mode (high insulin). The threshold, according to Ralph De Fronzo and his team is just under 25 ÎźU/mL. Someone who can keep his or her insulin under the threshold by eating 100 g/day of carbs and someone who has to keep carbs under 15 g/day to achieve the same effect are both in ketosis.

Ketones are important to ketogenic dieters primarily because they are an indication of being under the insulin threshold. Unfortunately, there is no test to measure insulin levels at home, so we are forced to rely on indirect markers. Of course, many of those markers present valuable information in their own right, too, so gathering all that information does have value beyond showing that we are in ketosis, and that we are benifitting from it.

(Mike D) #67

Bryan Johnson For The Win! He is a huge influence on me. If anyone is going to expand human longevity to 120years it is Bryan Johnson and David Sinclair.

(Mike D) #68

I understand the rational, but at 15 grams of carbs I am only squeezing out 2.0 ketones. In order for me to enter Autophagy to reverse auto-immune disease, the research shows I need a GKI under 2:1 , which means at my glucose of 85mg/dl I need a ketone reading of at least 2.2mmol/l When I raise calories even a little bit ketones rapidly fall to almost nothing. Which would suggest carb count is only a small part of the entire picture. The rational of this all well and good, but if I raise my caloric intake and stop producing measured ketones, then it means this rational is not working in application.

Also, again our goals are entirely different. So cool, it is working for your application, but is not working for mine. So is therefore ineffective as a strategy. I am open to any well thought out ideas you may have on the matter though.

Unless, possibly I have reached some kind of advanced level of fat adaptation, where ketones are being rapidly produced and used equally is quickly, resulting in low ketone levels on the blood meter? Any thoughts?

(Bacon enough and time) #69

That’s wonderful! Congratulations!

The level of serum β-hydroxybutyrate does not correlate noticeably with other benefits of ketosis. Phinney and Volek, who first defined the term “nutritional ketosis,” say that they picked the figure of 0.5 mmol/dl rather arbitrarily, as the point where they started to see the benefits of ketosis in their research subjects. Dr. Phinney has further stated that, while 1.0 mmol/dL might possibly be better than 0.5, amounts above 1.0 do not appear to confer any additional benefit.

I am hoping for an opportunity to pick their brains further on this topic, however, especially in light of the new evidence showing that the ketone bodies all have epigenetic effects, in addition to being able to be used as fuel.

They define nutritional ketosis and fasting (“starvation”) ketosis as illustrated in this chart:

KetoneLevels
KetoneLevels.jpg1327×896 205 KB

Note that while a diagnosis of diabetic ketoacidosis requires hyperglycaemia combined with a serum β-hydroxybutyrate level of 10.0, it is not until β-hydroxybutyrate reaches 20.0 that symptoms become observable.

(Troy John) #70

Ever since I started doing IF, I find my sleep is disturbed and when I wake up in the middle of the night, I find it hard to fall back to sleep. I am considering not doing IF, discipline of which I really enjoy. But…

#71

Sounds like you have it all covered. I thought Dr. David Sinclair and Byran Johnson eat plant-based diets and nut-based foods.

(Joey) #72

FWIW, serum BHB is just that … what’s circulating, not what’s being taken up by organs/tissue/mitochondria. Over time, when in sustained ketosis, our bodies curtail producing/releasing ketones in excess of what’s being taken up - i.e., a good thing from a homeostasis point of view - and our measured serum BHB levels decline.

This phenomenon is widely reported throughout years of forum participants comments and concerns.

Food for thought: not to worry about BHB levels much. They take care of themselves if you restrict the dietary carbs. Your energy level and mental frame can often be the best metrics of keto success. :vulcan_salute:

(Mike D) #73

Hmmm, ok…? Thank you, this is the kind of information I was hoping to see on this forum.

So it seems, that If my BHB wont budge upwards, then I should focus on decreasing glucose to increase my overall GKI. Maybe I should start meditating and the lowered cortisol may allow my fasting glucose to fall lower.

I will look into this further.

(Mike D) #74

Yes, but I do not want to get off topic. I could explain the relationship here, but it would require the creation of an entirely different Posting. I do see how that correlation without context could be easily confusing and would seriously overcomplicate an already complicated thread.

Remaining within the bounds of the current discussion, what is relevent here is that calorie restriction is the ONLY reliable repeatable method of Autophagy and longevity attainment. Other methods have been studied and none of them produce meaningful or repeatable effects. It is also stated that Autophagy through calorie restriction and fasting is also the only proven method of permanent disease modification through the destruction and assimilation of faulty gene proteins in the body.

They have tried formulating a panacea based on their research, but have failed. As far as they can currently tell, calorie restriction is the only way to slow and reverse age related genetic damage. Since in essence all disease and aging is a product of faulty gene transcription mistakes compounding over time. They make it clear that societies obsession with keeping a high metabolism is the very mistake that ends up reducing their lifespan and killing them early. Basically, in a nutshell, both Bryan and Sinclair said that regardless of peoples chosen foods, in general society is just eating itself to death. They both have very strong evidence and it has upset a lot of people, but the evidence is so strong it is still becoming accepted slowly through the medical academic community.

I won’t start the Vegan debate though, that is going to just bring a lot of dogmatic assertions on both sides, so I find it counterproductive to even talk about publicly. It is like debating religion entering that territory and it never goes well.

(Mike D) #75

Live long and prosper! :vulcan_salute:

(KM) #76

Sometimes it feels like a chicken and egg argument. Johnson, Sinclair (And Charles Li) have all had amazing discoveries with nutrition / fat and its function that’s primarily plant based (or in Johnson’s case entirely plant based), but it seems to me they started with the premise that plants are healthier. The whole arterycloggingsaturatedfat argument was a given before they even began. Their information is remarkable, but I’m still waiting for someone to come along with as much innovative bio-hack research devoted toward an omnivorous or carnivore diet.

(Mike D) #77

I agree. I have observed both Sinclair and Johnson closely as they speak and neither one of them seem to be dogmatic, they both rely heavily on careful study/observation and their biases seem to be in check. So despite their chosen Vegan diet, It appears the calorie restriction is the truly universal gold nugget in their research data.

I try too keep a very wide scope of perspective and do not like to get caught up in any one dogmatic belief system. It assuages the ego, but is counterproductive.

Cross referencing Sinclair and Johnson’s data with study into the “Blue zones” shows that although these Centenarian communities diets differ slightly, there does seem to be some constant similarities between them. I have more research to do into the “Blue Zones”, but since the advent of the new Netflix special I expect much more attention and data to be invested into the discussion by the end of this year. I really want to see the actual research data on the “blue zones” before I come to any strong conclusions on the matter.

(Mike D) #78

With that being said, I did spend a couple of years in Okinawa, which is one of the only five “Centenarian Blue Zones”. I can only tell you from personal experience that I was fed very little meat at all. It was mostly rice and vegetables. However, am not even invested in my own experience there to form a conclusion. There were far too many changing variables to say for sure. I really want to see actual research data, because if the data is unbiased the numbers wont lie and the truth will eventually come to light.

(Doug) #79

If this has any utility, it’s really for heavy carb-eaters who are fasting. By the time they’ve fasted long enough for all the things that have to fall into place for initiated/increased autophagy, the glucose/ketones deal will have changed. For ketogenic eating (or just the presence of ketones, per se), it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with autophagy, i.e. protein is the biggest inhibitor of autophagy, and if one is eating protein then increased autophagy really isn’t in the picture.

(KM) #80

Just a random thought, have you considered extended fasting? (by this I mean 48 hrs or longer). I have to say it’s the one thing I do that kicks both ketosis and fat loss into high gear (and, as I understand it but have no proof, autophagy.) Theoretically (ala Jason Fung), ‘feasting or fasting’ creates less havoc with metabolism than calorie restriction.

(Bob M) #81

I believe that to be true, but I think you also have to be concerned about the number of days fasting as compared to feasting. I found that too much fasting too quickly meant getting colder than normal, which possibly indicated a lowered metabolism. By too much fasting, I mean too many 36 hour fasts without enough time to recuperate.

(Jane) #82

I used to travel a lot before COVID and when I went to China I had a hard time getting enough protein because they ate mostly rice and vegetables like the Japanese.

I packed my own butter since it doesn’t have to be refrigerated to get enough fat for energy so I didn’t have to resort to carbs. I cut it into squares and wrapepd in foil candy wrappers and then kept eveything in a ziplock baggie in case it melted.

My husband freaked out when he saw the Amazon order for foil candy wrappers! :rofl:

(Jane) #83

A few years ago I was doing a 3-day fast and on day 3 recorded my highest ketone reading ever (7.6) and lowest glucose (52). I was going for autophagy and my GKI was 0.4 at that time.

I felt great - first time I experienced the “fasting high” some people talk about. And never reached that again, even though I did other 3-day fasts after that. No idea what made that fast different but I was happy with the results.