Fasting is raising blood sugar and kicking me out of ketosis! Is fasting even worth the trouble?

fasting
ketosis
hyperglycemia
(Joey) #44

Not sure how one could possibly construct either a “control” or a “randomized” study with N=1, but I’m keeping an open mind :thinking:

(KM) #45

Well Mike apparently changes up his protocol after he’s got hard data using pretty rigid standards, and then collects more hard data to see what effect the change has. That is in effect a control, it’s just not happening simultaneously. I’ll admit the only thing random is the change, not the sample population, but it’s something. :slight_smile: My point was really just that while simplification works better for many people, hard data is more useful for comparison purposes.

(Joey) #46

Fair enough. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of thoughtful self-experimentation (know thyself).

But there’s nothing random about making a conscious change from one treatment to another (or to control, i.e., a lack of treatment). On the contrary, if done to oneself, that’s about the most non-random a test I could envision. :wink:

(KM) #47

Fair enough. “random” really isn’t the right word here. I’m referring to a mindful, deliberate and measurable change from one behavior to another. - and the fact that I really appreciate efforts to measure precisely, even if they’re associated with a behavior that might be causing a person difficulty. (I.e. Mike’s OCD may be the reason his results are so precise and that might suck for him, but it still provides the rest of us a much cleaner data point to consider.)

(Joey) #48

Didn’t mean to nitpick on semantics. Perhaps a better word might be “intentional.”

Being intentional about one’s life choices is the highest form of self-awareness. Far better than living randomly, 'fer sure :slight_smile:

#49

Not even after a decade of tracking for me! As long as I eat (more than very minimal amount of) plants. I am very confident about my carnivore days :wink: Okay, I track them but I never would overdo carbs anyway…
So I don’t care about carbs, I care about the other two, hence my tracking. I can’t guess my macros without tracking, not even if I track most of it, I need to track them all.

But most people says what you did, indeed. I wonder what is wrong with me but I blame my non-satiating fats.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #50

Cholesterol is one of the substances the immune system uses to combat bacterial infections. I believe it also has other jobs in the immune system. Cholesterol is also the main component of all cell walls, and it makes up a large percentage of the brain, being essential to the proper transmission of nerve impulses.

#51

It’s far from it. All it got me was a ton of lost muscle and a lowered metabolic rate. Stop worrying about Ketone numbers, they’re useless. Worry about the fact you’ve been eating 1100cals for 9mo. I can’t see a reality where your RMR hasn’t lowered as a result.

Absolutely!

Also don’t forget that both low cals and fasting are both a stress to the body, which will raise cortisol just like any other stress. Also, gluconeogenisis is demand driven, it’s only going to happen if it needs to, whether that’s happening at your cals or not, I don’t know, for me, I know it would.

Not to get in your business, but if you’re disabled to the point where you can’t work out and that’s why your activity is low, 8% bodyfat is incredibly unrealistic. Without a decent amount of muscle on your body you’ll look like a windsock. It’s VERY hard for most people to ever hit <10% and that’s with constant working out for years. If you do otherwise, in almost all cases it’s because you’ve wasted away and resemble a vegan zombie. Make sure you’re staying healthy dude, if you’re not willing to bring the cals up and work on your macros in a different way for fat loss, may want to have your RMR measured so you can see if you’ve screwed yourself up or not.

(MC) #52

Same with the fasting. Cortisol spikes, glucose rises from that, sleepless night and little ketones by morning. I’m not sure why it seems to be an issue for some people, that our bodies will desperately try to drag the glucose out, but I’d reconsider the fasting for a little while.

#53

Yeah it’s so odd. Fasting is extremely natural to me. I merely don’t force-feed myself when I am very well satiated and 20-22 hours easily pass. I don’t even wait until hunger!

But we are all different, some people just need more frequent feeding, that is normal too.

(Jane) #54

I am an engineer so my math skills are strong. And when my engineering calculations don’t match real-world outcomes it is usually because there was a variable I wasn’t or couldn’t measure. Insulin comes to mind when thinking of a keto diet. I would love to be able to measure directly like I can with glucose and ketones.

That being said - if I had to put that much effort into tracking and weighing I would have quit 7 years ago LOL, so kudos to you for being able to maintain that level of dedication.

#55

He said that following his calculations, he could predict his results so far with good accuracy (2 days, if I remember correctly).

I have done so in the past, many years ago. I wrote down everything, including exercise, and I could predict my weight before stepping on the scales. I was counting calories at the time.

I disagree with people who say calories don’t matter. It isn’t my experience. Also, many people who say so, in general, didn’t need to achieve such low body fat and when the diet stopped working as far as weight-loss is concerned, they just assumed that’s what their bodies were supposed to be weighing, even if still overweight.

With keto or whatever other diet, the closer you get to your goals, the more difficult it becomes. In the OP case, the goal is really low in body fat, very difficult to achieve for someone who can’t exercise.

I think none of us has an answer. We didn’t need to do that. We don’t have his issues.

In the UK a doctor has a protocol where people only consume 800 kcals a day, if I’m not mistaken. His name is Dr Taylor. Perhaps reading about his research would help the OP in some way. Perhaps they had to deal with issues we’re not familiar with.

I personally think it is too low, but I have not been in an extreme situation where I needed to achieve such low bf.

I hope you achieve your goal and that it works for you, stopping your imune disease.

#56

Why is more difficult to achieve a quite low bf without exercise? What exercise do regarding fat-loss…? Apart from raising our energy need, of course. Mood too, quite often. I would be doomed without exercise, it gives me the little energy I have, among other things.

But even if it does make it harder, it will happen in starvation, there is no way around it, just death.

It would be good to find the best method though, even if it won’t be healthy if such an ideal option doesn’t exist.
We healthier others may be able to do things right, I am not sure about the OP but I understand his motivation to make an important problem better even sacrificing something else.
I still say the fat-loss should be slow in order to keep the energy intake less extremely low but the case is pretty special and probably the method isn’t just some normal convenient, pleasant one either.
At least I see things like this at this point.

(Mike D) #57

We are very different and have entirely different goals. Your goals are to feel good and happy.

My goals are in scientific study, longevity research and the reversal of chronic diseases such as cancer, auto-immune disease and metabolic diseases. I am doing this for the spirit of science and study, because human experimentation is frowned upon in the politically correct academic circle. It takes people like me, who are willing to experiment on ourselves to come up with the data. I do not deal in subjective beliefs, desires, or sloppy unsubstantiated data. I am only interested in critical rigorous analysis and carefully measured trends over time. I am supervised by a team of doctors and my blood is monitored closely.

We are not even close to being similar. I think you have fallen victim to the Dunning-Kruger effect and are full of erroneous information and are in dire need of continuing education.

I am not intending to be disrespectful, but literally every one else here is exchanging helpful information, though it seems you just desire a soapbox to stand on. I get the impression you are more invested in feeling validated, rather than being interested in accurate information. I know this comes across as abrasive, but it is my honest assessment of your comments.

Everyone has biases, but the people who are aware of and check their biases are the only ones who are not controlled by them. I am not interested in your narrow purely anecdotal opinions. I am trying to manage/ recover from something serious here, validating emotions is not part of my agenda.

(Mike D) #58

You are correct, this would be impossible for me to carry out entirely by myself. Mainly because of the placebo effect. I would need to have a trained medical professional who controlled the data, I would have to be nescient of the results until the study was concluded and there would have to be one other subject besides me who is similar in disease type and activity.

When I use the word “control” I am referring to the control of all variables that I can psychologically/physically account for.

“Randomized” though no, you are correct in your assessment, alone in self experimentation I do not see how this would be possible either.

However, if I bring solid enough data to my medical team and can provide ample evidence of improvements, and can share that data with enough professionals it will plant a seed in their mind and through dissemination of that information over time, will make them less squeamish about carrying out and actual randomized controlled study on a large number of participants.

What I am doing now is definitely considered as taboo and possibly dangerous. If I get sicker or die then it is a necessary sacrifice for the spirit of scientific medical research. Even if my results plant a single seed of an idea in a group of doctors minds it will be worth it, and could potentially save lives someday and prevent disease related suffering.

Or, i’m just mad and this is all for nothing, but for some reason I have faith it will pay off.

(Mike D) #59

It is far to early to come to a conclusion, but I am forming a hypothesis. For the past two days I raised my caloric intake from 1,100cal to 1,200cal and reduced my carbs from 15g to 10g to try to squeeze out as many nutrients as I can. I slept better both nights and the adrenalin high went away. 12 hour fasting blood glucose fell from the previous average of 100mg/dl to 85mg/dl, though unfortunately Betahydroxybuterate also fell from its average of 2.0mmol/l to 1.3mmol/l. It is far too early to calculate the change in average deviation though. I suspect it may take at least 7 more days at the new nutrient measurements to establish a consistent baseline. There should be a hormonal cascade from the change made and that cascade could take up to 7 days to stabilize. So I am going to stay at this new level of nutrient consumption for 7 more days then I will start calculating the average deviation. I will probably head to the VA for blood labs once the glucose/betahydroxybuterate levels show consistency.

It is even too early for a hypothesis, but I suspect that 1,100 calories is my thresh hold for starvation. I suspect there is an adrenal response happening secreting more adrenalin and cortisol. This would be the most logical conclusion for why my fasting glucose was elevated and I had developed chronic insomnia. At first I speculated that the carb restriction was the cause of the insomnia, but now I am thinking it was actually the overall calorie restriction promoting an crisis adrenal response.

I last had a DEXA scan about 3 months ago and it showed a lean bodyweight loss of only 3lbs since the beginning of my diet when I measured 37%bf. I will contact my endocrinologist in about 15 more days to have her order another DEXA scan to check my body composition and bone mineral density.

For my height 5’9.5 and current TDEE it seems like at the moment 1,100cal might be my threshold for “starvation”. If blood glucose hovers around 85mg/dl I might stay at 1,200cal for another 2 weeks to collect some consistent data. As I get closer to 10%bf I intuit that my body will trend towards a catastrophic adrenal response more easily. If my fasting blood glucose raises again past 90mg/dl I will add another 50cal.

As mentioned by a previous poster, a survival adrenal response is most likely the most rational explanation for both the insomnia as well as elevated fast blood glucose.

Though it is unfortunate that adding those extra 100 calories did drop my 12hr fasting BHB considerably. Still after the hormonal cascade stabilizes ketones may raise again.

(Mike D) #60

I am currently in physical therapy for a inflamed c5-c6 cervical disk vertibre crushing my nerve root to my left arm. Outside of those basic PT exercise I have not been able to exercise for approximately 10 years. Once I get closer to 12%bf I plan on trying to start walking my dog again. My reduced body weight should increase my serum concentration of immunosupressants. Also, in theory the minimal adipose tissue should decrease inflammatory cytokine activity to it’s minimum. If walking goes ok I will try to start adding in some basic strength training exercise. Which will inevitably raise my TDEE metabolism higher to offset the long period of calorie restriction. Then hopefully I can add atleast 700more calories back into my diet. This is all my mid term goal anyway and hopefully my rheumatologist will prove to be correct.

#61

Wow, that’s harsh. Dunning-Kruger? I never claimed to have any superior knowledge, everything I write is clearly and openly anecdotal.

I misunderstood your goals, the great majority of people who post here are looking to improve their personal health, not conduct research that can be applied universally. These are very different things.

Many people post anecdotal experiences here, while there are a lot of science savvy folk here and we all benefit from them, following the personal journeys of others is also greatly helpful at times. We all experiment on ourselves, to see what works for us individually.

Emotions have nothing to do with anything any of us are interested in, unless certain diets appear to cause irritability in people.

Anyway, I wish you success in your endeavors

#62

And I thought I was empirical or data-driven by nature. I am aware that stress and starvation can, at times, be beneficial for immune issues, but I am not sure about the long term, and I am no expert. Have you or your doctors contacted any of the authors of the studies that show low body fat percentages can cure or drastically reduce your autoimmune symptoms? My wife, who is a physician, sometimes reads some of these posts. Autoimmune issues are not her specialty, but she has suggested that while you have a team of doctors, you may need the skills of an internist to put it all together (big picture).

(KM) #63

I’m curious about your BHB levels and anything you’ve observed in that regard. There’s a perception that as the body “learns to use” ketones, the production of ketones beyond what’s necessary for the body decreases (certainly the spillover into breath and urine decreases, but also blood levels.) Are you finding that the more elevated the ketone level, the more dramatic your results? Or do you just feel that higher measurable ketones seems like progress?