Fasting is kind of scary to me

#7

Hi Chris,
I’ve wrestled with the difference between “what feels right” and “what is right based on facts” too. Its a difficult issue because, from what I’ve read (both the medical literature on pubmed and the advice from experts) there is no consensus in the literature. You can select a subset of the evidence and conclude that fasting is great and you can select a subset of the literature and conclude that you will get better health outcomes by not fasting. I think we are far from untying the Gordian knot that is human metabolism.

In the absence of clear and convincing evidence that one choice is better, i think what you are left with is doing what feels right for you. That’s a glib way of saying that genetics and epigenetics are different than mine, your behavioral/psychological issues with food are different than mine, etc. My thinking sort of follows the advice on exercise that the best form of exercise is the one that your will actually follow. If you feel good fasting and it helps you achieve your health goals then run with it - if not, that’s ok too.

(Marianne) #8

I get it.

I typically eat OMAD and do a 48-hour fast once a week with no problem. Did my first 72-hour fast a few weeks ago; again, no problem. Just can’t psyche myself up to do it again. Makes me anxious, I don’t know why. I also enjoy eating, too much. I don’t go overboard whatsoever on our dinners, but I enjoy and look forward to them.

When I start getting the club out as to why I’m not doing it, I just tell myself that this has to be a lifestyle change for me that is sustainable. I don’t want to “diet” anymore or force myself to do anything. If it stresses me now, it is not a good time, even though it went okay. The day will come when I want to do a 72 or more hour fast - until then, it’s okay.

(Robert C) #9

I think this is the case with just about anyone that is on Keto trying a longer fast.
Physically, a non-Keto person might have real trouble - instant Keto flu and blood sugar problems.
But, if you are pretty much fat-adapted, you don’t really suffer much.

But, psychologically - you might put yourself through hell.
Watching the clock as every minute goes by (instead of keeping busy) will start you eating way before your intended breaking of the fast.
Also, as in your case, not feeling normal (social pressure can do it too).

The “trick” as I see it is to get through (doing whatever you need to do) a real 2-day fast (not just a 48 hour fast). Then, you really “see” what is on the other side and discover that, not only is it not threatening, it can actually be a great feeling (like the positive brain benefits you felt starting Keto).

After that, deciding to fast for 3 to 5 days anytime is no problem.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #10

Much thanks to all. Kind of rare when it feels like everyone gets exactly what I’m saying :slightly_smiling_face:
Rob C, it’s definitely feeling normal “only to myself” because nobody but me, (and sometimes my GF I guess, who is also doing Keto) really sees what I eat.

Anyway, next Monday morning, after already going 24-28 hours, if I’m feeling as good as I did this morning, I’m going to go on and keep it going. If I start feeling like “I just have to eat” I will. Otherwise, I’m just going go light on my coffee, and maybe take a couple ibuprofens (to try to combat an enevitable headache :slightly_smiling_face:)
…and see what happens. If I go 36 hours and have to eat dinner, fine. If I go until the following breakfast, awesome :slightly_smiling_face:
Of course I’ll report back either way.

(Susan) #11

That is the best way to do it; Chris, play it by ear and do what your body dictates to you =).

(Marianne) #12

What is the difference? I thought with 48 hours, I was doing a two-day fast.

(Robert C) #13

If you eat dinner Monday and fast for 48 hours, you’ll have dinner on Wednesday.
If you eat dinner on Monday and fast for 2 days (i.e. do not eat on Tuesday and Wednesday) your next meal would be sometime on Thursday.

In the 48-hour fasting case - you really only had one day (Tuesday) where you did not eat the whole day. On both Monday and Wednesday nights you had dinner. It doesn’t help you as much to learn how to go to sleep without any food that day (which can feel difficult in the beginning of your EF journey).

As well, if you fast for 2 full days - instead of eating on Wednesday night and stopping all that great fat burning (which is happening at a good pace by then) you instead add at least an extra half day of fat burning (Wednesday when you would have had dinner on a 48 hour fast to sometime Thursday) - and that is easy because you are sleeping through most of it.

Also, in my opinion (in the example above), it is about on Thursday that you really get that feeling you could fast for much longer and it is when the hunger is gone.

If you instead plan to eat Wednesday night, you clock watch all day and start thinking “is 4 PM too early for dinner”. You don’t really have food off your mind for very long.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #14

Yep. Except it works better for me to have a nice big healthy breakfast on Sunday, then go all day Sunday, all day Monday, and eat another good breakfast on Weds morning.

(Bob M) #15

Usually, it’s the second day (where I eat dinner on Sunday), so Tuesday, that’s the worst for me. It gets slightly better after that, up to 4.5-5.5 days (my max length of fasting), even “good” at times.

At my house, dinners are always the family meals, so I always start fasts after dinner. (And, I rarely eat breakfast, unless we go out for some reason.)

(Robert C) #16

When thinking about this - good to keep in mind the size of the breakfast determines the beginning of a fast (for EF - not IF).

For example - a 600 to 800 calorie breakfast (i.e. pretty small) would mean you would normally follow that with a lunch at noon - so, your fast really starts at noon (starts the next time you would normally eat but do not - that is the “action” of fasting, not eating when you normally would have).

But a bigger breakfast (1200 to 1500 calories) would mean you really had an early brunch and would have skipped lunch under regular circumstances - so your fast really starts at dinner time.

But an extra-extra large breakfast (2000+ calories) is essentially OMAD. So, in terms of intermittent fasting or time restricted feeding, you’ve got a nice window going but, in terms of an extended fast, you don’t really start fasting (i.e. not eating when you normally would have) until the next morning.

Either way - in your example, not eating Monday and Tuesday (2 full days) I think is helpful.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #17

Thanks Rob. Still kicking myself for eating on Monday. I was already a good 28 hours in, then I only ate breakfast, because it “felt like” the normal, correct thing to do… Force of habit I guess. Going to see this week how I feel Monday morn…

(mole person) #18

I think this is true of most people on keto but after more than two years I still really suffer. It might be that I’m already lean enough for a woman but my body really fights me after around 24 hrs and makes sleeping a nightmare. I want to fast for autophagy very badly but I just can’t get past 24 hrs, or 48 hrs if I allow 400-600 calories of pure fat as a supplement.

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #19

Chris

Go easy on yourself. Most faster work into longer and longer fasts. Think of it like a muscle. Workouts and practice builds up your abilities. Allow yourself to bale out of a fast as well. In the last 6 weeks I baled once before I ended up getting a short virus. Did not know it when I baled but I had physical hunger and not that mental thing.

Then I moved my resistance training into my fasting window and had a particularly great day at the gym. Hunger said break the fast. So timing is important but you will learn what works for you. I do go to the gym and do resistance training on fasting days. I just don’t push as hard as eating days.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #20

Hey Ilana, speaking of sleep, on my weekends, I’m in my car for like 26-30 hours, and driving much of those hours… sometimes 1000 miles or more ! So by Sunday night, after not having eaten for 16 or 18 hrs, oh sure, I’m hungry… but even more so, I’m freaking exhausted ! And so my head hits the pillow, and I’m dead for 8 or 9 hrs. Interestingly, when I wake up on Monday mornings, I’m not usually any more hungry that I normally am ? This is why I think I need to see how long I can go on Monday without eating. I just have my caffeine issue to address… as I have never been able to drink my coffee on an empty stomach… and if I don’t have my caffeine, I’ll get an ugly caffeine withdrawal headache… Hmmm.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #21

Thanks Daddyoh :slight_smile: Im going to see how it goes Monday. My last meal Sunday morning, is going to be a nice BIG hamburger, with lettuce, tomatoes, bacon, mayo, cheese, on a big Keto bun :slight_smile:

Oh, and here’s another train of thought… What if I get to 1 pm or 4pm or whatever, I’m just a super hungry, grumpy mess… But instead of saying, "To hell with it, and having a full blow meal, I just have a couple 50 calorie fat bombs ? I mean I KNOW these will totally satiate me, but will that negate any benefits I will have had from a complete fast the rest of the day ???

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #22

Jump over here when you are fasting. Lots of support August 2019 - IF/EF Chat Thread (All Welcome) and a new thread each month.

People have different reasons for fasting:

  • get better at it
  • lose weight
  • health benefits
    • less insulin
    • autophagy (old cell repair/destruction)

At a high level: You can consume some fat and still lose weight and get better at fasting. The health benefits get harder or impossible if you consume anything with calories.

Most seasoned fasters consume nothing more than salt or electrolytes, black coffee, green tea and or water. I do seltzer water. I have measured my blood glucose and it does not change at 30, 60, 90, 120 mins post seltzer water.

Stay busy.

Are you fat-adapted? How long have you been keto? If you are new to this way of life it may be harder to fast for significant periods of time because your body is used to and expecting blood glucose.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #23

Well, since I’ve heard that fat adaption is not an all at once thing, but gradual, Id say that going on 3 months, with zero cheats, I’m getting close.

BTW, as much of a coffee freak as I am (I drink nearly the equivalent of a full pot every morning} I can’t… Or, should I say, in the past, with my old eating habits, could not drink coffee “without first eating breakfast”. It has always made me feel shaky, and sick to my stomach. Maybe with my new Keto WOE it might be different ? I might try a small, lighter version of my normal 22oz, double strength mug and see what happens…

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #24

3 months should be long enough. You might want to break habits. Drink some coffee out of a different cup. Or just wean yourself of coffee for a few days before fasting. I drink coffee all the time without food but I also don’t make it very strong.

Do post in the other thread and seek advice there about your fast before you start and in the middle of it.

I just broke a 44 hr fast Wednesday night and will do a 72 hour one starting Sunday after dinner.

(Marianne) #25

I had zero cheats, too, and ate really well (clean, nice fats, etc.), was losing weight, but I was shocked that it took me four months to notice a definite difference in my energy level when doing strenuous, sustained activity.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #26

Well, I have kind of a weird, and maybe unique situation when it comes to energy level…
I think this is due to my Fibromyalgia and maybe some overlapping Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m doing much better now, than i was for most of my life up until 11 years ago… And even since my back injury 5 years ago, I’ve kept a lot (80% ?) of my FM symptoms at bay.

But here’s the thing, 5 years ago, people would have probably looked at me and thought I was ready to climb a mountain with a 40 lb pack, at the drop of a hat… But that was only partly true. Usually I would start out feeling like I could barely force my to walk… Weak… no energy ? But 10 or 20 minutes in, once I had my adrenaline pumping, I’d feel like Super Man. Weird, right ? Or another thing, at my work, I’d have to climb stairs pretty often… But even after I had turned my health completely around, lost all the fat and gained a bunch of muscle, it was hard to get myself started up a set of stairs… Not enough time to get my adrenaline going ?

Long story short… Even now, going on 4 months of Keto, my burst energy sucks, but once I get myself warmed up, I feel like my endurance is close to what it was before Keto.