Fasting and growth hormone

fasting
diabetes
bodybuilding
(Jake ) #1

Hey guys I always wondered this question but never got a clear answer from my sources since fasting is so frowned upon for type 1 diabetics. The first part is there a muscle building or fat loss benefit from an intermittent fast and training in a fasted state? I’m fasting from anywhere to 16-20 hours a day. The second part would be would insulin negate and block any growth hormone spikes in my body since i am basically shooting insulin during my fast, (fat slows down the absorption of proteins and small amounts of carbs where it raises blood sugars slowly for a couple hours after) to bring down high blood sugars.
Thanks

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #2

There might be a fat-loss benefit, possibly, but you are more likely to lose muscle during a fast than to gain. This is assuming that “fast” means a fast, and not simply working out while not having eaten yet that day.

If you are Type I, you should be able to exercise on a ketogenic diet and your daily dose of insulin. You should not need your bolus dose. For more information, Dr. Bernstein’s book and the experiences of parents and patients on the Type I Grit Facebook group should be helpful. I’ve seen a couple of videos on the Low Carb Down Under channel on YouTube, in which Type I diabetics and parents of children with Type I talk about how the diabetic can exercise without problems on a ketogenic diet.

(Jake ) #3

Won’t that GH boost increase both fat loss and muscle building? Also the amount of calories I need to get in keto form just keeps my blood sugars steadily rising all day from the moment I break my fast but it’s still less than what I would take if I would be getting those calories from carbs/proteins and not deal with the huge spikes and possible hypos

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #4

What you want is a level of blood glucose that fluctuates gently; no rapid rises or deep falls. It doesn’t matter nearly so much what the absolute value is. If you are eating very little carbohydrate (under 20 g/day is a good limit), then you should not be seeing great automatic increases in serum glucose, since your energy will be coming largely from fatty-acid metabolism. Assuming, of course, that you have been eating a ketogenic diet long enough to have become fat-adapted, which usually takes six to eight weeks.

That is the great advantage of a low-carb, high-fat, ketogenic diet, there is no need for insulin to push all that glucose out of your blood stream. Both elevated serum glucose and elevated serum insulin cause various types of damage. However, the fluctuations of glucose when we are in ketosis do not generally cause a problem.

By the way, the whole notion of caloric intake dates from well over a century ago, when the caloric value of food was all that we could measure. These days, the picture is far more nuanced. It would be better to consider the ATP yield per gram, especially since protein is generally not used to produce our energy, except in dire circumstances. Both glucose and fatty acids yield energy, but dietary carbohydrate requires a great deal of insulin to deal with it, whereas fat needs no insulin but the minimum needed for survival. This is why a Type I who eats a ketogenic diet can do very well on just the daily dose of insulin and dispense with the bolus doses.

The risk of hypos is an artefact of insulin treatment, because it is very difficult to calculate just how much insulin is required to deal with a given amount of carbohydrate. If one is not eating carbohydrate, then the problem goes away. Type I diabetes has been with us since at least classical antiquity, if not before, and hypos were unheard of until 1923 and the advent of insulin therapy. Interestingly, in rats and mice who have pancreases that can produce neither insulin nor glucagon, they do not develop diabetes, which means there are other factors besides those two hormones that regulate serum insulin. Insulin and glucagon just happen to be the most visible and powerful.

(Jake ) #5

I agree with you to a certain point, when your eating a lot of food you have to bonus, the insulin is out of your system and blood sugars still steadily rise which causes a need for smaller more frequent doses. But I have done that before on say OMAD or two meals where I relied just on my daily doses with no need to bolus.

(Bob M) #6

There are supposedly benefits to exercising in a fasted state, which is what I do. (Though not for any purported benefits, only because the time I have to exercise is in the morning, or not at all.) I believe they include both muscle building and fat loss.

What happens to your blood sugar when you exercise? Mine goes up for most exercises, though I no longer have my CGM and can’t test longer jogging. But short sprint-type workouts and body weight training cause an increase in blood sugar.

You T1s are tough. For instance, you may have to look at the amount of protein you eat and base insulin off that, but the blood sugar rise will be delayed, for several hours from what I’ve heard. (Which is what I think you are saying in your first post.) I’m not like that – I can eat as much protein as I want, and nothing happens, blood sugar wise. So, what works for me may not work for you.

I think to get a growth hormone effect, you need a while of fasting, maybe 2 days or so.

(Jake ) #7

:+1:t2: Mine goes up as well while lifting, all that glucose being pushed about via protein. It does drop though when I do any sort of intense cardio workouts. Mine doesn’t rise steadily like mentioned above if I eat lean meats or proteins. Something about the fats that slows down the absorption

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #8

What confuses me about this statement is that, on a ketogenic diet, one is presumably not eating very much, if any, carbohydrate, so why is serum glucose rising? It’s not coming from the fat, surely? And we know that gluconeogenesis is well-regulated enough that excess protein, if any, is not automatically turned into glucose. What am I missing here?

(Jake ) #9

It’s weird at least for me as a type one diabetic I’m very sensitive. Anything raises blood sugar even pure fat. I’m weird I use the keto diet to help put on muscle because it’s easier to control the highs and lows but I’m eating anywhere from 3-6k calories a day of fat and proteins. I’m about 260lbs currently

#10

Fasting isn’t a friend of litting, there’s no real GH spike in fasting, they can claim all their 300x nonsense all they want, you ever use HGH? When you start upping HGH it becomes VERY noticeable, a little extra water retention, tingling hands, crazy hunger, yet fasting is upping it by the multiple hundreds and nothing? OK!

Yes, Insulin stops GH secretion dead in it’s tracks. Even when people use GH secretagogues they can’t eat for 30-45min because the small response will shut it down. Which is kinda funny because Insulin makes HGH work WAY better! But that’s only when you inject it and bypass the shutdown part.

I’d be using your Insulin to it’s advantage as a lifter!

(Michael) #11

As I understand it, all type 1 diabetics have to account for protein intake, and as noted, depending on the amount of fat, fat intake as well. You can even look up standard formulas. If you want to understand why for protein, perhaps you should read all those links I posted explaining how amino acids regulate glucagon output, which in turn amplifies clearance through many mechanisms, including GNG.

While most people also release insulin with protein which counter acts the increased GNG (and yes, it absolutely increases GNG, to say otherwise is clearly false as shown in the science) to maintain relatively stable blood glucose through interplay with GNG and glycogen use, without insulin, blood sugars rise with any food intake.

(Jake ) #12

For sure! Many things affect it, my sugars go up when my stress levels are high, infection or cold etc

(Jake ) #13

Also to add, makes me very insulin resistant where I have to use double the dose for the same foods