Extreme hunger pangs and "feasting mindfully"


(German Ketonian) #1

Ok, so here’s the deal,

I’ve been doing keto for 3-4 months now and have to my knowledge never been out of ketosis. My lowest blood ketone level reading has been 0.9, which I usually track in the morning just after getting up. I still struggle with hunger A LOT! I do not want to lose weight, but maintain (male, 31 years old, 185cm, 72kg). While having been quite successful in terms of keeping my calories to 2500-3000 Calories for the first month and a half, I’ve recently entered a weird cycle of fasting and “feasting on steroids”. And when I say feasting I mean FEASTING! I consume up to 6000 Calories in one sitting and then usually enter a fasting phase. When I feel the urge to feast, my hunger signals really are all over the place. The first 2000 Calories I consume are more like an appetizer, where there is NO satiety at all! After that there is a very small and gradual rise of feeling full.

Let me be clear: the feasts are completely keto-friendly, usually amounting to 100g of protein, 30g of carbs and the rest of the calories coming from fat. Usual foods are cream, nuts, butter, cheese, eggs and sausage, all of which are high fat variants. Cheeses, eggs and sausages, I supplement with loads of butter or cook them in lard/ghee/olive oil as omelets to keep the keto ratio of roughly 3/1.

I have no problem with the feast and fasting cycle per se as I am not gaining or losing weight by doing that. My problem is feeling “out of control” when my hunger pangs get so extreme. I simply lose my mindfulness in these situations and don’t even show the due respect to the food I consume (e.g. just shoving everything in my gob). I rarely manage to just have a “regular” eating day the last couple of weeks. If I start to eat, I can’t stop until I reach my daily calorie needs times two or three.

My ideas:

  • Micronutrient deficiency. Jason Fung and others have talked about how appetite may not cease because the body wants to offset deficiencies in micronutrients. Thus, my appetite could be high, even my energy needs are met. I recently had bloodwork done which revealed a Vitamin D and B12 deficiency. The Vitamin D deficiency was quite severe while B12 was just within the lower limits the of the margin. I have now started to take Vitamin D pills, but not B12 as I consume a lot of animal organs, such as liver as well as fish 2-3 times a week. Should I supplement for other potential micronutrients such as magnesium? I do not have problems with cramps or anything, so does it make sense to do this preventively? What other micronutrients could I be lacking?

  • Carb/protein “deficiency”. Could it be that my body is telling me that it’s time to up my protein or carb intake and end the strict induction phase? I do not work out at the moment, so my protein needs should be around 60-100g per day, which is where I keep things. My carbs rarely creep over 20g, even when on a binge and if they do, they stay below 30g.

I would be grateful for any ideas how to break this cycle. I like the fact of being able to fast, don’t get me wrong. But it’s so dissatisfying to never feel satiated if I don’t eat like a rescued castaway. I just feel that I am losing control during my feast days and that the hunger pangs get too extreme. I know it’s encouraged to somewhat binge after a fast, as Megan Ramos states—but I think it’s over the board in my case. I want to feast mindfully!


(Cathrine Helle) #2

I wouldn’t presume to know how you should deal with this, and I don’t know where feasting turns in to binging. Could it be a subconscious feeling of deprivation that perhaps triggers this? Even though fasting the body is easier on keto, doesn’t mean that the mind is OK with going without eating.


(Keto Travels) #3

How are the hunger pangs timing-wise? Is there a certain amount of time that you can fast before they set in? Do they happen at roughly the same time of day? Or are they completely random?

Just wondering if there is a way you can schedule a feasting time-window before you normally get hungry? That helps me to be mindful … if at least I am done with the cooking/food prep before hunger hits that is. If I leave it too late, it is going to be “Apocalyptic T-Rex” kind of eating as a friend kindly named it. Not that I have yet had any on keto - too much body fat to go.


(VLC.MD) #4

I find it hard to believe it is ever a good plan to consume massive calories at once.

Sure massive carbs is worse than massive fat.

I think you might benefit from stress reduction and thinking about your relationship with food.

If you want to consume 6,000 calories … try this …
eat 1500, go for a 20 min walk. eat 1500, go for a 20 min walk, … rinse and repeat.

If you make it to 6000, so be it.

Zimon, your metabolism is fine. If you want to feel well and live a long time, try exercise (weights and cardio) … that’s your ticket.

Outdoor exercising will help your vitamin D level. What was it BTW ?


(Erin Macfarland ) #5

@Zimon I think what you are experiencing is just a normal physiological reaction, if I remember correctly you are quite lean, which will definitely affect your hunger signals. Fasting will also affect your body differently since you have low amounts of stored energy, your body will ramp up signals to eat after you have gone a while without eating. Some people just have a harder time with fasting and keto once they get to a low level of body fat. When I was very lean (during the time I was suffering from anorexia) my hunger signals were incredibly overwhelming and could not fast for long periods. Even though like you I would eat thousands of calories of keto food I would still be so hungry. One suggestion if you are really bothered by having to inhale tons of food after fasting is to not fast for longer periods of time. Try eating more frequently during the day. This will of course mean that you won’t get whatever benefits of fasting you’re looking for but, since you are lean and do not have metabolic diseases, you probably don’t need to worry about using fasting to mitigate these issues. Keto can look very different for someone who is lean and metabolically healthy than it does for someone with significant body fat who has diabetes. So if you want to continue with this life style you may need to re-evaluate how you’re approaching it.


(Todd Allen) #6

@Zimon I’ve experienced a similar thing, perhaps not so extreme though in my case it was causing weight gain. You should definitely experiment with supplementing magnesium and anything else in which you think you might be deficient. But in my case I think I was doing a good job of achieving sufficiency of all micronutrients and still would experience bouts of excessive hunger / failure to achieve satiety.

I don’t feel like I’ve beaten this yet, but I’ve got it under control and was able to reverse my weight gain and get back on track. I went through a period of carefully recording what I ate and it became apparent what foods I was eating to excess. In my case, nuts and dairy were my worst culprits. I still eat my problem foods, but not alone and in limited amounts. For example, I used to eat nuts right from the jar and I don’t allow myself to do that anymore, but I will toss a small handful on a salad or other dish.

I’ve adopted new binge foods, mostly vegetables such as celery, lettuces, radishes, asparagus, etc. I’ll start out eating them with fats and protein but when I’ve hit my targets for those if I’m still hungry I’ll just salt them heavily and keep going until the desire/ability to keep eating is gone. Which means I often exceed my carbohydrate target - supposedly the worst sin of keto. But I’ve found it the least problematic approach for me. None of my binge foods are dense and even when I go crazy it only results in an extra 30 to 40 g of carbs with a good chunk being fiber. My ketone levels may drop, but I’ve never experienced “getting kicked out of ketosis” that concerns so many here and my blood sugar stays within target which doesn’t happen if I binge on nuts and sour cream.


(roxanna) #7

This is really interesting. Before Keto, I had a period where I was doing a cheat day one day a week. I was in the best shape of my life and at my lowest weight. However, I felt so out of control on those cheat days that I didn’t enjoy it, and ended up not continuing it. I’ll be interested to hear how this works out for you.


(Adam Kirby) #8

There is something called the Protein Leverage Hypothesis, that basically states people are driven to eat until they get enough protein. That’s why I think protein aversion by some keto people is counterproductive. Personally I find that meat and not fat in general gives me the most satiety. So yes, I would definitely say increase your protein. Particularly for your low body weight, there is NO reason not to to eat loads of good animal proteins.


(German Ketonian) #9

Thanks to you for the encouraging words! It’s good to know I am not alone with this. Your advice makes a lot of sense.

@VLC.MD my Vitamin D level was 68 nmol/L. The normal range according to the lab/doc is 100-150. So it’s significantly below the threshold. I will definitely get some exercise in. However in November, the German weather is horrific; practically no sun at all. I am thinking about going to the solarium…

@Emacfarland Yes, I am definitely not huge, but not slim or even anorexic right now. I have roughly 15-20 kilograms of fat and a relatively high body fat percentage around 22%, despite being in the normal BMI range. I will have to experiment with smaller, more frequent meals. I have definitely been noticing that fasting is super easy for me after the 5th trial right now. I can do 48 hours of fasting without issues. This why it’s so strange to experience that I “eat myself ravenous” when I break the fast, even though I don’t even sense hunger when breaking the fast. I would love to fast forever lol, but it’s gotta end at some point, right? :wink:

@brownfat Interesting! I will definite try to up my vegetable intake. I think my protein and carb regimen are unnecessary strict. After all I am fully keto-adapted now and my experience tells my that even 80g of carbs and 300g of protein won’t kick me out of ketosis provided I eat enough fat to fuel my body.

@akirby83 Hm, I’ve already upped my protein intake to no avail as far as satiety. What I’ve noticed, though, is that I feel stronger and more vital since I am consuming 80-100g instead of keeping it to 60-70g.


(Karen Parrott) #10

99 % of my out of control eating was/is due to consuming a binge trigger. I have a genetic SNP for extra ghrelin ( hunger hormone ).

Trigger foods for me are nuts, most sugar, all grains and most emulsifiers like guar and xantham gum. I use 12 step type abstaining protocols to manage out my out of control eating urges.

Never was my “ relationship with food”. Very much biochemical for me. Its a relief because I was always told I was a glutton and lazy. I’d like to see this see folks who told me to moderate binge foods try to deal with the binge urges I had from not abstaining. They wouldn’t be able to do it either.

IDing my binge food triggers was key.

Try removing common binge foods one by one. See if there’s one that turns on the uncontrolled hunger. Nuts, flour, sugar, MSG, emulsifiers, grains.

Of course I can still have an emotional trigger here or there, but it’s nothing compared to my biochemistry triggers. I use meditation, sleep; walk outside , talk to a friend. The biochemical triggers Those can last for 3 hours or up to 3 weeks for me. Its pretty horrible, yet very livable to abstain

Onward and good luck. It took me 40years to figure this out.


(German Ketonian) #11

For me, it doesn’t seem to be associated with particular foods… nuts trigger my the same way eggs, bacon, cheese, or even butter does. It’s really weird. Unfortunately, I won’t even get grossed out by literally drinking oil or eating plain sticks of butter. :roll_eyes:


(Karen Parrott) #12

Listen to a few podcasts by Vera Tarman, MD. @richard I’d recommend Dr Tarman as a podcast guest. She wrote the book Food Junkies and is a food and addiction specialist in Toranto


(Nicole Sawchuk) #13

I’m with you @zimon. I never feel hungry despite what I eat and I have never been a binge eater. Just figure that signal is broken. When I am really hungry it is a different feeling than when I am feeling that constant hunger. That “real” hunger" is when I know its time to eat. So that’s good I now can differentiate between the two! The other constant hunger signal does comes in waves. I think my decades of snacks, breakfast eating, lunch and supper time are still ingrained in my mind so when that time comes, my stomach likes to growl even though it is not hungry. I ride the waves.
I envy those who never feel hungry and are always satiated. Not me. With that said, I am not dying here. I don’t feel faint when the hunger waves hit and they are nothing more than an annoying piece of me. With that said, after 7 months of fasting, those signals are improving slowly so I believe there is hope!
I am pretty much down to my goal weight now. I was never super overweight. I was just insulin resistant my whole life and its going to take a few years to fix this. I will keep nourishing my body with wholesome foods in the hope of slowly healing myself!

Like you - sticks of butter, tablespoons of coconut oil, BPC do not help and sometimes make it worse. So when I fast, its a straight fast and I just take more salt during those waves!


(Doug) #14

Right on, Nicole. :slightly_smiling_face: Things do improve over time, and even though it’s natural to want “fast results,” things meaningfully changing for the better in a few months is really pretty quick, compared to the decades that many of us have in our old habits.

“Real hunger” - I’ve been fasting off and on since last April, so roughly 7 months here too. Have not made it to 6 days yet, and I don’t think that real hunger has been with me yet. I wonder when the last time I really felt it was.


(Karen Parrott) #15

Since my hungry/full is broken, I have to track my food. The advice to eat until full is very harmful to me. I suspect that the signaling may be this way for many.


#16

I am similar re never really feeling ‘full’ and having major feasting sessions. Tbh I have always felt my feasting was more of a hormonal reaction as, for me, it is the few days before my period that i just want to gorge yet the rest of the month I am totally fine just tracking macros, eating within that and just never feeling full. Interestingly though I have never been doing this WOE for weightloss, having always been fairly lean. I do it to help my ME and chronic pain. However like you I have low (in my case VERY low) vit d levels (which have not risen in over 5 years despite very high supplementation on prescription from my Dr) and also struggle with low vitB12 (again dr is now prescribing for this also) - so it makes me wonder whether it could be to do with those as well as hormonal fluctuations. I know most people with ME/CFs struggle with being low in those vitamins so I never previously related those to the mega cravings. Your post has certainly got me wondering now though.