Extended Fasting Question for the Science Gurus--Please Help!


(Suzanne Leigh) #1

I’ve lost 11 pounds in 6 days of a water only fast (SW 134.5, CW 123.5) I came into the fast in ketosis, so it’s not all water. I guestimate (unless someone can tell me otherwise and if so I’m all ears) I’ve lost 4 pounds water, 1 pound of wonky protein and 6 pounds fat.

My BMR is 1100 calories per day. I am doing very little movement, so assume I’m burning 1300 calories. On a CICO basis, that equates to losing .37 pounds/day, yet I’m losing 1.8 pounds/day.

We know CICO is flawed, and fasting can accelerate metabolism, but I don’t have nearly enough fat stores to support a fat-only loss of this magnitude. Am I catabolizing my hard earned muscle mass? If not, can anyone explain how I’m able to lose so much weight every day? Could it be that I’m still somehow shedding water? Inflammation? Fairy dust :joy:?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!!


21-30 Day Water Fast - Seeking Places/Retreats
#2

Jason Fung, MD, well know for fasting regimes and more estimates that during fasting after all is said and done, one looses .5 lb of fat a day. There are many variables in the mix so YMMV.


(Suzanne Leigh) #3

Thanks for your reply. I’ve read Jason Fung and watched the videos. Based on my BMR, I should lose slightly less than .5 pounds of fat per day, and definitely not the 1.8 pounds I’ve averaged.

My concern is that if I’m truly ‘burning’ 3500-5000 calories/day, what’s the fuel being used? I don’t have enough body fat stores to justify that energy burn. If I’m burning muscle to make up the energy difference, it’s the opposite of what I want to accomplish.

PS–what does YMMV mean?


(Liz ) #4

Your Mileage May Vary

It’s possible you are burning protein but that’s not all necessarily muscle mass. If it’s autophagy then you could be cleaning up unneeded damaged proteins, loose skin, type of thing.


(Suzanne Leigh) #5

Thanks @LizinLowell,
I am sure autophagy is happening, it just seems incredible that with a BMR of 1100 I’m losing almost 2 pounds per day. Don’t get me wrong, I’m thrilled, but puzzled.

I know fasting can up-regulate metabolism, but never dreamed it would do so to this extent.


(Kim) #6

I think your muscle is safe. My first two 7 and 8 day fasts, I lost 11.5 pounds each fast.
I’m currently on day 5 of a 7 day fast and have only lost 2 pounds! My blood ketones were 4.6 and 5.2 and I was in ketosis at the start of this fast. Apparently, it is common to lose a lot of weight in the first few fasts, but then it levels out to about 1/2 pound per day (this is according to Dr. Fung).
I’ve done several 3 and 5 day fasts in addition to the two previous long ones, so having only lost 2 pounds in 5 days seems to fit Dr. Fung’s idea. I have only been drinking water too. No black coffee or tea, just water.

It’s disappointing, especially with such excellent ketone readings, but I gues slow and steady wins the race!

It was suggested to me that I start mixing up how I fast - maybe a 42 hour fast, feed for a day or so and then a 36 hour fast…just mix it up. After this fast ends on Sunday…actually I won’t refeed till Monday early afternoon, I think I’ll try three 42 hour fasts per week and see how that goes.

Good luck!


(Suzanne Leigh) #7

Thanks, @Kimmer,
Mixing up your fasting schedule makes sense. It also makes sense that earlier fasts would get the ‘low hanging fruit’ for fat loss, while our bodies may be more resistant in subsequent fasts.

“I think your muscle is safe. My first two 7 and 8 day fasts, I lost 11.5 pounds each fast.”
Does this mean that you didn’t lose muscle during those fasts? Did you have a DEXA or similar to verify?

Good luck on completing this fast and on your weight loss goals.


(Todd Allen) #8

Some of the weight loss in the first couple days of fasting is just the emptying of the intestines. Muscle glycogen also depletes and contributes to water loss and the impression of muscle loss. Dexa scans while helpful are not able to isolate these factors so they work best if one does them in a consistent state with respect to feeding and hydration. I’d look at the average rate of weight loss after the first three days to get better guesstimate of tissue loss though that still won’t tell how much is fat versus muscle. The loss of muscle protein varies dramatically with fasting. Growth hormone is boosted by fasting and a few report no loss at all. I’m probably a near worst case with a genetic muscle wasting disease and I’ve tracked repeated extended fasts with dexa scans indicating nearly a third of my fasting tissue loss is lean tissue though I’m able to recoup much of the loss over the following three months and muscle function seems to improve a bit with a loss and rebuild cycle. I’m currently experimenting with near fasting consuming whey protein concentrate spiked with additional BCAAs, creatine monohydrate and other things popular with body builders to see how it compares after a cycle of loss and rebuilding. I expect it will blunt both the loss and rebuild and am curious to find if it will be a net win or loss in the struggle for better body composition.

An extreme case is the actor Christian Bale who starved himself for months to play a mentally disturbed emaciated anorexic in “The Machinist” losing a tremendous amount of muscle for the role but then did an amazing rebuild to play Batman. Would he have done better or worse without the starvation?

In summary, I’d be surprised if you manage to cause significant long term muscle loss but we are each different and it is surely worth consideration and making efforts to minimize if you think you are at risk. I hope you can track your experiments and share your results.


(Suzanne Leigh) #9

@brownfat Thank you for that!!!

I’ve been thinking of the rebuilding process, hoping I can put on muscle mass without associated fat gain. No small feat, but maybe it will be easier this time than during the last 2 years of training.

I wish you the best as you experiment with ways to improve your body comp. I admire your resilience and think of you often when talking with a neighbor who’s husband has a muscle wasting disease. I’m tempted to tell her to join this forum and share your posts with her husband, but his mind is currently closed to possibilities.

Thanks again for the perspective. Here’s to Christian Bale Batman bodies for us both!!


(Todd Allen) #10

I hope your neighbor’s husband joins, the more the merrier. And the more people there are trying to understand how their body works the more we all might learn.

I’m looking forward to eventually becoming ripped and seeing my Christian Bale like six pack even though it will be the Machinist’s and not Batman’s. But it’s an experiment I think might have a big payoff.

From my reading I’ve come to believe much of the muscle dysfunction and wasting of my disease and several other muscle wasting diseases though it starts in different ways ends up very similar to the muscle loss commonly seen with aging and which can become pathologically rapid in the very elderly, especially those who are obese and/or diabetic who often develop wasting called sarcopenia. Hyperinsulinemia and many other factors contribute to fuel uptake in non-adipose tissues chronically exceeding the fuel burn resulting in an accumulation of fat in liposomes. Subcutaneous adipose tissue is the healthy place to store fat and it causes trouble in other places, especially metabolically active tissue such as the liver, kidneys, heart and skeletal muscle. Healthy people tend to store just enough fat in their muscles to get them through their most demanding days. A marathoner will store a lot more fat in their muscle then a healthy person who doesn’t exercise but both should have a high rate of turnover without much accumulation of old fat. Adipose cells only live about 10 years suggesting fat storage is demanding. Muscle cells and long motor neurons are formed before birth by the fusion of lots of small progenitor cells and have to last for life. As they accumulate fat the turnover rate of their fat slows. Fat stored near lots of mitochondria are more rapidly oxidized by the reactive oxygen species leaked by the mitochondria. And the most reactive and damage prone fats are the unsaturated ones that are used to build and repair membranes such as are needed by the mitochondria to control what goes in and out. Degraded mitochondrial membranes incorporating rancid fats leads to slowed less efficient fuel burning and more leakage of reactive oxygen species, more degraded fats and a vicious downward spiral. Some tissues like the liver and kidneys can dump fuel into the blood and even advanced cases of fatty liver can be reversed quickly with fasting. But muscles don’t dump fuel, it has to be burned and it probably becomes impossible to ever clear the muscles of old fat when things progress too far. But if my results continue improving over the next year or two I think I may do well for a long time to come.


(Suzanne Leigh) #11

If knowledge and effort are any indication, I think you’ll do just fine. I look forward to a picture of your Christian Bale abs, Machinist or Batman or something in between.

Many thanks for that scientific overview. I read voraciously on these boards, but this was new information for me.


(Troy) #12

Nice!:sweat_smile:

Let’s just hope your experiment does NOT go “severe” new keto mood/focus swings …like Christian Bale in American Psycho instead :flushed::wink:


(Suzanne Leigh) #13

I’m starting day 10 of the fast. I can’t measure body comp here, but I can see changes in the mirror these last 2 days that indicate it’s not going well. My triceps flap and my thighs flop. Not at all what I’ve worked for these last 3 years. I very much hope that like Christian Bale, I can regain (and maybe surpass) my musculature achieved with 3 years hard work.

I’ve dropped just over 13 pounds. My blood glucose has settled around 3.2 mmol (58mg/dl) and my ketones today were 8mmol.

I can’t WAIT to start eating again. I’ll start slow with at blended zucchini/squash soup, then add some raw juicy veggies and a few berries. Day 2 I’ll have the same plus steamed veggies. Day 3 I’ll add some starchy vegetables, avocado and nuts. Day 4 all of the above plus lentils. Obviously far outside the bounds of keto land, but I am actually so excited to eat these foods I’ve denied myself for years. As I’ve said I’m already insulin sensitive with an HbA1c of 4.9, so I shouldn’t stress about eating these higher carb foods, but I’m so well trained to say NO that it will be a mind trip to finally say yes.

I’ve got glucose strips-o-plenty to monitor how my glucose reacts to these carbs and I will post, along with my weight gain. I fully expect to gain at least 5 pounds with the combination of water gain and stool gain. Maybe my muscles will even perk up a bit (one can only hope).


(Suzanne Leigh) #14

Note that my experience at TrueNorth could not be better. The staff are incredible, the other guests are engaging and supportive, and the daily workshops really help pass the time. The medical care feels really nice as well. Doctors come by to check on us twice/day, and there’s someone on call 24 hours/day in case anyone gets into trouble.

If anyone has serious health concerns and wants to explore water only EF in a safe environment, I highly HIGHLY recommend this place.


(Suzanne Leigh) #15

2:51am my time. Wide awake, thinking about breaking my fast in 5.5 hours. But I’m awake every night at this time. High ketones mean no sleep.I was at 8mmol as of this morning. Glucose holding steady around 3.2mmol.

I’m now down 14 pounds. I hope not to gain more than 4 pounds on the refeed; a big factor will be whether I can poo.

@Rian my back pain this time wasn’t nearly as severe as last time, say only 5 on the pain scale versus 7. And it only lasted 2 days and nights. So maybe there is something to the detox theory.


(Suzanne Leigh) #16

GREAT NEWS!!!

Started refeeding yesterday with zucchini/squash broth. Ate that 3 times during the day and had some beets around 7pm. Woke up this morning and had a bowel movement!! This is my FIRST natural (un-supplemented) bowel movement in over 18 months. I am absolutely blown away.

Curing my constipation was the #1 goal of my fast, but I’d been plugged up for so long, and had developed such a dependence on magnesium, miralax and a host of other aids, that I was skeptical about the reality of a cure. Now the proof is in the pooping. Wahoo!!!

@KetoLikeaLady, if you’re still having trouble with constipation you may consider a stay at TrueNorth. The environment here is unparalleled in my opinion. It’s not a high brow resort, but the support and vibe are perfect.


(Suzanne Leigh) #17

I’ve been eating for a full week now. Started with the zucchini/squash blended soup, then added raw veggies, then steamed, then some berries and a few starchy carbs. I know that’s profanity in this thread, but I have to say my digestion is doing well with this plan. I’m now eating prunes a couple of times/day but still going regularly, which is a miracle after a few years of constipation.,

I hit a low of 119.8 on the last day of my fast. Now after a week of eating I’m bouncing around 123.5-124.5 which is exactly where I wanted to be. My body composition is in the tank though. Definitely lost muscle mass. But I’m hopeful after a month of solid training in the gym I will be back in good form.

For anyone on the fence about water fasting, I can’t recommend the experience highly enough. A restful and supportive environment was important for my success. I’ve read many accounts of those who undertake EFs alone and often while working. I’m amazed and impressed–not something I could do.


(Todd Allen) #19

Are you tracking your blood glucose and/or ketones? I’ve done similarly carby refeeds, ~100 g/day, and my values stay pretty good for a few days if I’m at a significant caloric deficit but as I approach maintenance level calories my BG rises and ketones plummet if I don’t cut the carbs by at least half.


(Suzanne Leigh) #20

@Adam-Zoe, I can already feel that I’m making muscle gains. My quads and abs feel tight and strong, unfortunately my triceps droop, but I’ve been working them hard and feel confident they’ll come around soon. I certainly feel better in the gym, not lugging around the bowling ball belly. I also feel fantastic on the carbs. I’ve been eating Keto / LCHF for 26 months, a pittance compared to some in this forum, but perhaps it’s time for me to change it up. I’m going to stick to this WOE for as long as these things stay solid: energy, good mood, good sleep, body weight maintenance, and body composition gains. I am planning another fast at the end of May and I’ll likely transition back into ketosis at least a couple of weeks before that start date.

@brownfat, I tested my glucose a few days after I started refeeding, and my levels were much higher than I normally see. Morning fasting levels were in the 90’s (which I’ve seen before with LCHF but when I’m in ketosis those levels are in the low 70’s to low 80’s) and post prandial hit low 130’s. The docs at TN told me not to freak out about it and I agreed. I’m probably somewhat IR after so long in keto, but I feel that will resolve as I continue eating complex carbs over the coming weeks. I will check again from time to time, but I don’t want to obsess about it. I feel really great, and I take that as a good sign.


(Suzanne Leigh) #22

Thanks @Adam-Zoe!!

I use free weights almost exclusively. I also do some HIT conditioning: slam balls, rower, fan bike etc.

Yes, I’m going to stick to eating carbs for a while. My gut loves the resistant starch and the wide variety of nutrients and fibers. I will go back to keto prior to my next fast, but I’ll do it with a plethora of whole plants (lowcarb) and only a modicum of animal protein (grass fed, local filet for example with no antibiotics or hormones, and wild-caught salmon).

I think I’ll do 10 days again, but I’ll see how I feel at the time.

Re the difference in fuel, I can’t make a side by side comparison, because I feel so much better now than I did before the fast. Is the difference the food? I think it certainly plays a role, but so does improved gut health and weight loss, both of which were kicked off during the fast. In other words, I can’t really make a side by side comparison now because the fast itself changed so much, but historically here’s what I experienced:

  1. January 2015: started weight training after a divorce-related weight loss. I was pescatarian. Ate a lot of salad and salmon and a protein shake every morning. Started to notice muscle gains. Trained 3 days/week
  2. March 2015: added beef and chicken back into my diet. Looked and felt pretty good. Trained 3-4 days/week. Starting with #3 below, I trained 4-6 days/week
  3. June 2015: felt like I was gaining some weight during my travels. Cut fruit and reduced veggies. Had a very hard time making this transition…soo…
  4. July 2015: tried a high protein, moderate carb, lowfat diet. It SUCKED. I ate copious amounts of meat but even when my stomach was bursting I never felt satisfied.
  5. January 2016: started a LCHF. Already small, I still lost 1" on my waist in first 5 days. Felt like I was eating incredibly decadent food, especially since I’d eaten super low fat for the prior 6 months.
  6. February 2016: I was lean and looking great, but already having digestive problems. Felt ‘full of poo’ constantly, but my bowel peristalsis was ridiculously slow.
  7. April 2016: Drilled down to very solid nutritional ketosis. Looked amazing, had decent energy, but bowels were still off.
  8. June 2016: back to LCHF at the advice of a new trainer. Started eating 5 small meals/day with more vegetables and small serves of animal protein. Bowels slightly better, but still required huge amounts of magnesium and herbal stimulants (this is true throughout, until my TrueNorth fast).
    9: August 2016: kept above LCHF regiment except on heavy leg volume days, when I dropped to lower levels of fat and added 100g sweet potato + 20g blueberries.
  1. November 2016-May 2017: this is my fittest, leanest, healthiest period, where the eating and training were super drilled down.
    11: June 2017: spent a month in Barcelona. Changed training regiment to super slow protocol, and though I ate as well as I could LCHF, I didn’t weigh/measure food or get good sleep. By month’s end I’d gained 1.5 pounds, lost muscle mass and gained fat (impedance method).
    12: August 2017: Wheels started to come off. Belly began to distend, crazy itching of my shoulders woke me up at night, constipation worsening. Weighed and measured every morsel, ate less solid food and drank more shakes and exogenous ketones, ate in a more compressed window.
    13: November 2017: everything goes haywire. Thyroid off, sex hormones off, HUGE belly, terrible constipation, muscle loss, itching, anxiety. I had a 3 day feeding frenzy early in the month…something I NEVER EVER do…in response to the anxiety I was feeling over this unexpected weight gain.
    14: Between mid-November and mid-January I bounced around between LCHF, ketosis, and a zone type diet, my head was spinning and so was my nutrition, though I still kept a very close eye on exactly what I ate every day. Trained 4-5 days/week.
    15: Mid-January 2018 through mid-Feb: Ate mostly LCHF after my mid-January water fast, but started experimenting with a few carbs here and there (potato, chili beans etc). Stomach was leaner after the fast. Training went well and had good energy.
    16: Mid-March 2018: broke the 10 day water fast with a HIGH CARB, LOW FAT plant based diet. Constipation improved, energy good, eating tons of complex carbs and enjoying. I find it very interesting that I’m satiated on a low fat diet, when I wasn’t back in 2015. Of course then I was eating tons of meat, and now I’m eating tons of vegetables including starchy veg like yams, along with beans and lentils–this combo really satiates me.

It’s too early for me to tell how my glutes will fare. They were hard to build…took a good 2 years…so I pray they come back. I need to get more protein into my diet and I’m tempted to start drinking smoothies again, but TBH I’m still now sure what screwed up my digestion so badly before and I’m scared to toss in a potential grenade. Or, I could just add some animal protein, but again, I’m loving all the carbs and if I toss in meat I’ll have to cut back on my lentils and beans. I’m sure I’ll figure it out, but any way you shake it, to rebuild muscle i need to up my proteins.