Exogenous Ketones in Marathon Running

running
exogenous
(Daniel Schroeder) #21

So based on your experience thus far would you say that exogenous ketones are worth taking while running long distances? Is the (some say prohibitively expensive) price point worth the results that you get?

(Jay Erdahl) #22

@oshinnluv - my results right now are inconclusive. I did not have good results on my first 15 mile long run last weekend, but had GREAT results in my sprint and resistance training workouts. And to be clear, “not good results” meant discomfort, not lack of performance - I still got an energy boost.

It’s possible it was more about drinking a 1/2 liter of water in the middle of a long training run, which is VERY unusual for me. I’m also unsure about the effect of taking a super starch gel (Generation UCan) an hour before the Exogenous Ketones. Therefore, I’m going to try again this weekend - same distance, same super starch gel before I run, but this time I’m going to mix the Keto//OS into coconut oil and water to make a gel.

As to the ROI, that’s a good one - $4/packet is a lot, but I normally run completely fasted, so if it’s just about a couple packets in a marathon and a packet or three in the GRP training runs leading up to the marathon it’s fine. $20 three times a year is well within my running budget.

I will keep posting in here on my results. I have over 3 months until my next marathon - LOTS of time to experiment.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #23

Dr. Phinney makes it sound as though everyone, even the leanest endurance athlete, has enough body fat to run a 100-mile endurance race with no need to consume any calories at all during the race. Assuming the person is fat-adapted, of course.

(ianrobo) #24

OK a bit quiet at the moment as I am cycling in Tenerife and just did Mt Teide - 50km climb and my stats below, my average HR was 162 on the border go Threshold and Tempo if you go by that but more importantly very very high and did all this just on some eggs and butter and then 8 Jelly babies during the ride.

Must be very fat adapted but what it proves is that the % of carb/fat burn when full fat adapted is what the FASTER study stated or I should have surely bonked because carb burners would have
?03

thoughts @richard ?

(Jay Erdahl) #25

@PaulL - I agree, and I’ve done a 100 mile race while not consuming any calories for the last 15 hours. This is not about the distance, but about the speed. I’ve done LOTS of long races without exogenous ketones, I just need to do one marathon faster so I can run the Boston Marathon - thus the experimentation.

(Jay Erdahl) #26

@ianrobo - IMPRESSIVE ride - and you’re certainly going at the effort (as measured by average HR) and even longer time than I am looking for in my marathon. What are jelly babies, and how many carbs do they have? Do you have them more to elicit the performance boost caused by the carbs in your mouth briefly?

(ianrobo) #27

About 3g of carbs each so more about the sweetness than the carbs forgot what you call then in the US !

(Richard Morris) #28

50km at 4.5% … RESPECT. I just did 47km around a lake and I am feeling it in my quads.

Drawing 3.5 kCal in 4 hours without depleting glycogen … yes I would say the only way you could do that you would have to be glycogen sparing and fat burning the entire time. You could always get a needle biopsy after one of those rides if you really wanted to know for sure :slight_smile:

Gummy bears = Jelly babies

(ianrobo) #29

I am willing to be studied for it if someone would pay for it !!

but seriously what this shows is that with the right food and training you do not need to operate at lower levels of HR for ‘events’ …

today’s ride for example took it real easy and climbed approx 1000M at average 142 or so

(Jay Erdahl) #30

Another update, and more good news. I was able to make a gel, though Keto//OS tastes simply NASTY - I know why they have you mix it up in lots of water. Going to double the coconut oil in the next batch…

Hill+Endurance workout - after 2 mile warmup I did 3 miles of hills - quarter mile up, quarter mile down - and repeat! Ran the last one as fast as I could, trying to burn any residual glucose out after my 15 hour fast. Took the gel, and ran an additional 9 miles - 4 at 7:45, and 5 at 8:45. Felt amazing, even after the steep hills.

Next test: a 6 mile tempo run tomorrow at 7:30. I’ll be 46 hours fasted, so it should be a good test…

(ianrobo) #31

so in your test here for explosive efforts I am guessing up hills it seems to work ? A good test is to repeat that again but this time without the gels and see if any difference ?

Do you have a link to anywhere to look at this, Strava etc ?

(Jay Erdahl) #32

@ianrobo - good question. I’ve documented several efforts up above, and they’ve all been on faster paces - the hill was just to wear out my legs and deplete my glycogen stores as a method to simulate race conditions. The real test was taking the exogenous ketone after being exhausted and seeing if it could help to power a faster run.

Here’s the Garmin record of that run:

As to replication, I’ve been on this ketone running, fat-adapted running road for three years - maximizing what I could do with fat burning. I’ve tried experiments like this literally hundreds of times with different types of fuel or no fuel at all.

The goal of this experiment, and this thread, is to gain advice from others who have experimented with this type of fueling.

I don’t know if I will be successful, but at least it will be documented somewhere for those who may wish to try this later.

(ianrobo) #33

I do find this fascinating Jay as I want to maximise my performance legally and after Xmas and my ride in Tenerife I am now going Ultra LC for me <30g of carbs and see what that does over the next month or so in terms of performance.

I do love this self experimentation, same as when I used Vespa which I think works (no sorry it does) but is too expensive ! About eh same cost as Keto OS but until these become more popular the costs will be high

(Jay Erdahl) #34

Update on Exogenous Ketones - after several successful tests, I’m feeling fairly confident that Keto//OS can help with my speedy efforts as much as sugary gels without the negative side effects.

I plan to use it for my upcoming 5k on February 10th, though given the temps and surface (icy) I’ll temper my expectations - anything below 22 minutes will be a success for me.

I’ve changed my goals for 2018 - deciding to focus on getting more than 110 miles in a 24 hour race in June and focusing on running a faster marathon in September. Running far (60-100 miles per week) and fast (7:30-8:30/mile) was not giving me enough time for recovery. I plan to use exogenous ketones on some of my longer runs, but those longer runs will be slower, so the experiment will be more about feel, endurance and recovery than speed.

(Ben Joe Markland) #35

So I am really fascinated by this. Been doing Keto very seriously for nearly 1 year now and also started running last year as well. I am up to 7 miles now. This Saturday I will be doing 7 miles again in preparation for a 1/2 marathon in March.

I have Perfect Keto Endegounos Ketones that I have been taking before all my runs for the past 2 weeks and have felt great, this one I plan to take before but do you ever take it mid-run? I am going to run my first marathon in October of this year and want to know if I should be taking some mid-run as well or just before.

(Jay Erdahl) #36

@BenJoe_Markland - DELIGHTED to have another experimenter on this channel. I’ve tried some mid-run, but typically at the 10 mile mark, though consuming it with water was not a good fit. I’m looking forward to trying some in some upcoming longer runs in gel form, as I tried the gel between a hill workout and a 4 mile tempo (7:15 mile) run and it worked very well.

How does the Perfect Keto EKs taste? Do you mix it in water? Have you experimented with Generation UCan before?

(Ben Joe Markland) #37

The Perfect Keto tastes like chocolate milk, but I have had some burpy sensations if I start running too soon. I can mix it in 8 ounces of water and it tastes really good. I know I am absorbing by doing a the Ketostix urine test. Being fat adapted for some time the sticks tend to not work anymore for me unless I take the EK. My thought was to take one on my long run this Saturday just before dynamic stretching routine and then have a water bottle for about the 4.5-mile mark. I run about a 10:00 pace, but last week I ran out of gas at the 6-mile mark and really slowed down. So I am hoping to finish stronger.

I have not tried the Generation UCan, but I will look it up.

(Jay Erdahl) #38

GREAT info, and sounds like a great plan. Do you train with a Heart Rate monitor? I’ve heard that the EKs are particularly good when running above the Anaerobic threshold - or above 138 bpm for me.

I started with Generation UCan 3 years ago, right after I became fat-adapted, and it’s been my fuel of choice for anything marathon up to 100 miles. I’ve been trying Eks to use for JUST the last 6 miles of the marathon or for shorter races.

(Ben Joe Markland) #39

Yes I do train with a heart rate monitor and I am for sure going to be above my threshold in the 2nd half of the run tomorrow. For me it is about 150. I will post back on how things go tomorrow.

I will look at GenUCAN, do you buy the hydration ones?

(Jay Erdahl) #40

I don’t - I use this: https://www.amazon.com/Generation-UCAN-SuperStarch-Gluten-Free-Naturally/dp/B017C4PVRI/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2_a_it

Good luck tomorrow!