Exogenous Ketones. Dangerous?

(Consensus is Politics) #1

First, when I say dangerous, I mean long term. Like a high carb diet. Decades later your body is worn out from all that sugar and high insulin.

Here’s why I ask. Someone I know has been taking exogenous keytones. But she isn’t eating even low carb. She seems to avoid certain carbs, but so far from low carb, she is nowhere near ketosis. I have a feeling she also eats many small meals a day, and doesn’t beleive me when I say it’s all about insulin.

My problem with exogenous ketones. If you are a sugar burner, and you take exogenous ketones, and you are eating a lot of carbs, what’s going to happen? Which energy will be used as fuel? We know her insulin (supposedly) is going to be high most of the time. Which means she isn’t going to burn fat. But instead because of insulin level will be storing fat.

Has there been any studies on this? I’m not talking about therapeutic use, like epilepsy, et al, but being used for weight loss and or body building in conjunction with high carb diet.

As I write this I’m in the middle of the 2ketoDudes podcast that is on the subject of exogenous ketones. So I’ll save this here and finish listening. :cowboy_hat_face:

sigh they never talked about what I’m worried about. Problem is I don’t really know how to put this in words. But I’ll attempt, and sorry if I get redundant.

A sugar burner, nowhere near ketogenic, is fueled by glucose. If that person takes exogenous ketones (let’s assume they are the right-handed Tetris model :sunglasses:) will they be used as fuel at all? If so, then what’s happening to the glucose that would normally be used as fuel? I’m assuming (and we know what that does) that

(assumption 1)
insulin is still doing it’s job , shoving glucose into the cells for mitochondria to use as energy.

(assumption 2)
That means those cells now have energy to use

(assumption 3)
Does that then mean that the keytones will just be passed from the body 100% unused?

Or… will the body try to use both at the same time? In the same cells? And what effect will that have on metabolism?

(assumption 4) :thinking:
I see this as possibly energy overload. Perhaps just leading to the creation and storage of more fat. I know that a big ASSumption there, my biology isn’t that good.

Again, I’d be happy to see studies done on this. Searching the net and the Tubes hasn’t been helpful. Way too often I’m finding too many channels of shit on the web to choose from (Pink Floyd reference there, sort of) :roll_eyes:

(Heather~KWOL for life!) #2

I, personally, lean to #4 of your question due to the fact that you cannot eat both high fat and high carbs, that will equal weight gain. You would have to be doing A LOT of physical movement to burn all that fuel that is being consumed. That is just one person’s thought, good questions!

(Katie the Quiche Scoffing Stick Ninja ) #3

Im really confused by them in general.
You aren’t truly burning ketones for fuel until you are fat adapted, correct?
So what is the point in taking exogenous ketones?
Is it really more energy while you’re at the beginning stages of ketosis?
Does it even help you become adapted faster?
It doesn’t matter if you are drinking extra ketones if your body doesn’t even know how to use ketones as fuel yet?

(Running from stupidity) #4

They turn pee sticks purple.

(Katie the Quiche Scoffing Stick Ninja ) #5

@juice But that’s silly. Purple stix aren’t an indication of ketosis LOL.
So, basically total bullshit?

(Running from stupidity) #6

If you have something - anything - that says you’re in ketosis, you’re in ketosis! Seriously, some people think like that. ET sellers cater to that market.

Look, I’m sure there’s some edge cases where they’re useful. But for normals? Not so much.

All this is IMHO, of course. But, because it’s me…

(Katie the Quiche Scoffing Stick Ninja ) #7

How disappointing, lol.

(Running from stupidity) #8

Don’t get too upset, someone will be along shortly to explain how I’m completely wrong :slight_smile:

(Katie the Quiche Scoffing Stick Ninja ) #9

I’m not a very patient person. Lol.
Anyone? It makes sense to me anyway.

#10

Basically #4. In the presence of elevated insulin, ketones get turned to AcetylCoA and back into fat. It’s basically empty calories if you aren’t keeping your carbs low.

(Consensus is Politics) #11

:joy:

(Consensus is Politics) #12

:grimacing::fearful::scream:

:cowboy_hat_face:

(Consensus is Politics) #13

Normals? :thinking:

(Consensus is Politics) #14

And here we go again! Gosh, where’s @Baytowvin when you need him. Ok, i’ll Pinch hit.

Not. But I’ll make a general comment. Something I should expand upon from the original post. What I think exogenous ketones are good for and why, I think, people use them.

I can see them being useful to help kickstart ketosis when you did something to drop out of ketosis. Maybe I ate too many carbs, maybe ate some keto ice cream that was truly to good to be true. Pure sugar. :scream:. BG spikes over 200. Stays there or relatively high all day and maybe into the next day as well (been there). ETs might help getting the engine primed. In the exogenous keytones podcast, @richard was saying how a glucose test knocked him for a loop. 70 grams of pure glucose I think he said. Gluco-cola I’ve heard it called. He said he ended up being hypoglycemic. Which shouldn’t happen to us ketonians. It’s one of our superpowers. But he wasn’t making keytones anymore. But even in his sugar fogged brain, he kept a clear head, and deduced he needed to force ketone his way out of it. MCTs to the rescue. Go listen to the podcast to find out why it worked. Pure genius. I tip my hat to you sir.

Ack… there I go again. Ok, why do the users of ETs use them though? The person in my example wants to lose weight. She’s also on a health kick. Works out most days of the week, with her Army husband. They are general very fit. But she has put on some weight, and IMHO I think she is looking for a easy way to get there.

The average person out there hearing about ketogenic, and how this diet (small “d”) is basically a miracle. For those of us that are diabetic, or have other endocrine problems, it truly is. And the side effect of reversing diabetes this way is major, fast (usually), weight loss. Who wouldn’t want a part of that.

But it’s scary as hell. How much fat?!? That can’t be healthy. What’s left to eat? I can’t figure out how to plan meals. It’s truly intimidating.

[the following is done in the voice of Foghorn Leghorn, everyone’s favorite road island red. But I couldn’t afford him. So it’s just me, BUT I DO A FAIR… ISAY A FAIRLY GOOD FOGHORN LEGHORN! If I do say so myself!
But… enter stage left, EXOGENOUS KETONES. You want keytones? We’ll sell ‘em to ya’! Get ‘em right here folks. We got yer left and right hand molecules. It’s a balanced molecule so it works better. Everyone knows balanced is better! This little package here will last you a month. Mental clarity! Endless energy! Weight loss! Complete bodily harmony! How can you put a price on that! Well we just did! For $29.95 a month we will send you a package of snake oil… er Super Ketone Deluxe made from snake oil!

I don’t have access to the package she had today that got me started. I’ll take a picture of it and post it. Honestly, it’s not as bad as I made it sound. But it reminded me of THAT GUY. The old west snake oil salesman.

(Running from stupidity) #15

Do they, though? Or do they just make the meters look as though that’s what is happening?

(Consensus is Politics) #16

Very good question. :thinking:

I’m very interested in seeing some serious studies on the matter. Especially the molecules that are used. How many type are there? And what does each type do in our bodies?

(less is more, more or less) #17

I’m going to reboot this thread, rather than start a new one. A friend recommended an article to me, regarding exogenous ketones. Full disclosure: my bias is that they are unnecessary.

TL;DR,

Dr. Stephanie Estima article merely increased my skepticism for her claim in favor of exogenous ketones. As always, I could be wrong, and I’ll appreciate any productive and constructive push-back.

The following text is what I was going to post to the Medium-published article, but to do so would create a unique “story.” I do not wish to create my own “story” which seems to be the standard issue over there.

Your article essentially rehashes the low-carb proposition: that the current evidence indicates that a highly-restrictive carbohydrate diet is anti-inflammatory, reverses type 2 diabetes, help stabilize type 1 diabetes, helps with weight management, diminution in late-onset dementia and Alzheimer’s and many other benefits.

Expressed most simply, that being fat-adapted might best reflect our body’s “natural state.” After years of living a low-carb diet, this has also been my personal experience.

Here’s where you lost me. You lead with your skepticism about exogenous ketones such as β-hydroxybutyrate, but you now believe consuming ketones (after fat adaption) is beneficial. I don’t see your Road to Damascus moment in this article.

Most importantly, what is the supporting evidence for your claim, specifically, to consuming ketones? Why were you skeptical? What persuaded you that your body, alone, is insufficiently capable of producing the best and most sustainable ketones?

(Consensus is Politics) #18

Tsk tsk tsk…

I’m surprised you didnt just answer these questions for her. I think i can. Follow the string sign. (Ok, gonna make those not familiar with the archaic programming language BASIC decrypt that last sentence. In my opinion BASIC should be taught as soon as the kids have a grip on the alphabet, or well, reading. Say, second grade. And just say “No” to LOGO :woozy_face:)

(less is more, more or less) #19

Oh, my, it took me a while. The VB var prefix is a “$” So, yea, follow that thing.

I cynically agree with you, but I’d rather pose my skepticism as a question than as an outright accusation. Politeness stands out on the web. :wink: At first blush, her work isn’t as evidence-based, or so it seems, as our cadre of leading lights on low-carb. Nor have I exhaustively researched her oeuvre, so I may simply be ignorant of her contribution.

#21

I had them suggested to me when I was fat adapted to help reduce high inflammation levels (hs CRP) along with collagen, due to a badly damaged cell wall in my colon. Rebuilding it. Trying to avoid further diverticulitis and IBS admissions. Working so far.

Haven’t got a reference but respect the knowledge of the dietitian who put me on them. She didn’t sell them to me. I pay her for her brain and knowledge base not supplements.

I don’t take them when I fast cause I need the autophagy and rebuilding cycles to heal.