"exercise doesn't help with weight loss"


(Larry Lustig) #21

Exercise at best does not help with weight loss. At worst it promotes weight gain – both muscle and body fat. The science behind this is fairly uncontroversial. The mechanism is largely the same as the mechanism behind ketogenic eating – hormonal control of energy shunting to be burned or stored. If one doesn’t believe that post-exercise hormonal changes cause the acquisition and storage of energy as fat it’s hard to see why one would simultaneously believe that the similar post-carbohydrate hormonal effects do cause storage of energy as fat.

The exercise-weight hypothesis has a similar origin and is contemporaneous with the development of the diet-heart hypothesis. In retrospect, neither of them are borne out by the underlying science.


(Alex Dipego) #22

Sorry I’m going to have to respectfully disagree.

The carb loading post workout is based on an insulin spiking mentality of, “if I eat all these sugars and protein they get store in the muscle and my glycogen is filled.” Sound and makes sense but too simple and bad science. It’s bro science at its best. The issue here is what exercise are we all talking about because all types provide different responses.

I don’t think there is enough good science to say that all exercise in general will not assist in weight loss.

I think people going from 0-100 are wrong but 0-5, it’s way more reasonable and easier to track and gauge what’s truly happening.


(eat more) #23

i’ve read this repeatedly trying to understand…

are you saying exercise alone causes an insulin response causing fat storage?
or
are you saying that the concept/practice of consuming carbs post workout causes an insulin response and fat storage?
or
both?
or neither?


(Stickin' with mammoth) #24

I figured out why this happens in my own adrenal exhaustion-riddled body: it triggers a stress response that brings on the cortisol. I’m gradually–painfully gradually–building up again to longer hikes but the damnit progress seems too fucking slow.


(Alex Dipego) #25

You have four people: A likes to run and is on a SAD WOE, B is on a keto WOE, C also likes to run but is on a keto WOE, D is keto and wants to move more. Everyone of them is inactive and decides to start their journey at the same time.

Week 1: A and B notice they both lost 10lbs week 1, awesome right? Well it’s mostly water from glycogen loss. See A ran 5 miles everyday whereas B just cut the carbs and upped the fat.

C did both what A and B did and lost 10lbs too! D lost 10lbs with only 5mins of walking every day. Like A and B it’s due to water and glycogen.

A,B,D all feel energized but C is exhausted and feeling sick. Well A is telling their body it needs energy! All this running all of a sudden their hunger increases with their metabolism. B and D feel energy later in the week after the brain lowers glucose need seeing it no longer needs so much glucose. C feels bad because there isnt energy yet. So much demand from running atop of the mental transition makes it hard to make changes, but keto flu right? C goes strong.

Week 2: A loses only 4-5lbs this time so ups their running. As joints begin to get sore every morning. The body is starting to inflame from the sudden increase of activity. B urinates on a stick and sees 40mg/DL! Yay ketones… Well those are spilled ketones but right direction! They feel great and notice no more bloating. D lost 4-5 lbs and walked 8mins everyday that week and feels great just like B. C loses 2-3lbs and feels sore all over. Barely any ketones on their strip and they are still exhausted. Keto doesn’t seem to work for them but they push on harder thinking they are just being weak.

Week 4: A noticed they can’t lose weight unless they run more but feel so sore all the time. Inflammation makes them gain weight. B notIced weight loss slowing down but also sees their waist shrink and energy be abundant, they want to start moving. C is a wreck and says keto is a waste of time and binged on their favorite foods putting on most of the weight they lost. D is having steady weight loss walking 10-15mins a day and notices waist shrinkage as well as better energy.

Sound familiar to anyone? Most people hit it too hard to fast and the body adapts fast! There is a way to exercise correctly and slowly to allow proper hormone adaption and activity increase without over doing it.


(Larry Lustig) #26

Both.

The latter, that exercise increases appetite, is not particularly controversial and I think most people understand the concept of “working up an appetite”. Exercise leads to increased consumption.

It’s also true that after exercise LPL activity increases in adipose tissue to attempt to restore energy drawn down during the active exercise, undoing some, all, or more than all of the adipose energy draw down you experienced during the exercise.


(Larry Lustig) #27

“A” is unlikely to lose any weight on this regimen.


(Crow T. Robot) #28

I’m not sure if Tim Noakes originated this or just quoted it, but I think it encapsulates the correct view:

“If you are exercising to lose weight, your diet is wrong.”


(Crow T. Robot) #29

Another thought I just had:

“Eat less and move more” is widely derided in our community as doomed to fail. Why? Because statistically it almost always does. That’s just how it is, and this is what most of us are saying when we say “exercise doesn’t help”, not that it cannot have any positive effect if done right.

Unfortunately, many still want to believe that exercise is the answer and point to fitness gurus and other professionals (AKA, those that sell you advice; caveat emptor) who are successful using EL;MM. It’s an imperfect analogy, but to me the fallacy of this is the same as pointing to Michael Jordan and saying, “Look how simple it is to be a great BB player. You just jump higher and suck less.” :stuck_out_tongue:


(Jamie Hayes) #30

Here’s a thought for everybody about exercise. Which statement is more true?

When people do a specific type of exercise it shapes their body in a specific way. eg Doing yoga gives you a long slim body. Doing weights tones and strengthens your muscles, and for some (mainly young males) it increases muscle size. Distance running makes you slim and lean.

People with specific body weight, height and mobility just seem to choose the exercise that suits their body. eg People with long slim bodies sometimes choose yoga. People who are naturally muscular enjoy lifting weights. People who are slim with good biomechanics like distance running.

Of course, there’s some truth in both statements. What do you think?


(eat more) #31

my original post is (and still is) about exercise in conjunction with keto/fat adaptation
being that the statements i observed were all made in keto communities…diet is a given

there is a huge difference between “appetite” and “consumption”
even so…i have a decreased appetite for hours after training with keto…i don’t think i’m an anomaly…

i haven’t done a lot of research regarding LPL activity but my understanding is that exercise…specifically resistance training activates LPL in muscles and prevents activity in adipose tissue…which keeps fat cells from growing/multiplying…less fat.

i fully commit to the fact that you can gain “weight” with exercise but not that it could ever make a body have more fat…as long as proper nutrition is in play…whatever that person chooses…in my case keto


(eat more) #32

i like it!

i do think that ppl’s bodies choose the activities that come most naturally to their biomechanics.

i’m predominantly fast-twitch muscled (short powerful bursts versus endurance)…so i lift weights, jump rope, and do intervals
i’ve tried to be a runner…i suck at it…could i run from a zombie…yes! barring that or some other threat i run in short intervals.
could i learn to be a runner? probably but at this point i don’t really have the “want”…probably because it isn’t enjoyable because i’m not built for it?


(Stickin' with mammoth) #33

I dare you to hang around the free weight racks and NOT laugh at all the gangly ectomorphs hoping protein powder and power sets will turn them into Arnold Schwarzenegger.

PS: Arnold was a major proponent of steroids and admitted it openly back in the day.


(Larry Lustig) #34

Generally not – otherwiise CICO would be much more effective. Few people successfully meet increased appetite with decreased consumption beyond the very short term. Those who do almost certainly end up lowering their basal metabolism to compensate.

If this were not true, then the way to weight loss would be literally eating less and working out constantly. There would be no need for keto.

It’s unquestionably true that keto has a profound effect on appetite, enough to make the increased appetite from exercise. A couple of hours isn’t a long enough horizon to look at consumption – if you look at it systematically over days or weeks you’ll find that people eat more when they exercise and less when they don’t – or, at least, studies show that to be true.[quote=“mikki, post:31, topic:7111”]
my understanding is that exercise…specifically resistance training activates LPL in muscles and prevents activity in adipose tissue.
[/quote]

This is true during exercise, but afterwards the opposite happens so that adipose energy stores can be restored. What effect that will have on your amount of body fat likely depends on your insulin health / response, with insulin sensitive people doing best and insulin resistant people (again) getting stuck with more fat production.


(Jo Lo) #35

OK, as a recovering ultrarunner I can add to this. For several years I ran one ultra (31 to 50 miles, taking 6 to 15 hrs each) per month, plus the training to make it possible. Do you think I lost much weight? Ten hour events burned perhaps 6000-8000 calories, while eating very little (you lose your appetite, your stomach shuts down). Well, no, not much weight. I was overweight when I started and after years of it I was still overweight.

Then I started keto and lost 30 lbs in about 3 months, without exercise, and have kept it off for 2 years. I still run a bit, rarely up to marathon distance, but even on keto it never leads to much weight loss. I don’t claim to understand the process, but that’s my n=1. I must say a lot of my runner friends haven’t lost any weight either…some have done over 100 marathons/ultras. I’ve only done 73.


(eat more) #36

that’s exactly why there’s a need for keto…to prevent and in some cases repair metabolic damage…safely and effectively using your existing body fat as a supplemental (to food) source of fuel.

the more lean body mass the higher your basal metabolism…the only way to get more (than you had before) and maintain lean body mass is to use said body…were we in a different time/world there would be very little to no need for intentional “exercise”.

i am NOT saying exercise without attn to fuel is way to adjust fat to lean ratios…
isn’t that the goal? less body fat for health and optimum function? (and in some cases aesthetics)

i am not an exercise zealot nor am i in the fitness/diet industries…

I am saying there are far too many variables to make generalizations to the masses…most of which don’t care how they lose “weight” or the science/health behind it…they just want to see the scale move.

if i didn’t already workout i’m positive that i’d love to hear that i “shouldn’t” :joy:

thank you for all of the information and making me think…more lol


(eat more) #37

not that this horse isn’t mostly dead but i came across this on a different thread.

much more succinct than the words i’ve been using :blush:

full post here:

Fat loss on CICO??


(Michael Wallace Ellwood) #38

Exactly my experience too (not so much the second bit).

I have also read (probably in Taubes) that exercise tends to reduce insulin levels (possibly only temporarily). That would tie in with the reduced appetite.

I deduce from all this that exercise (at least temporarily) can reduce insulin resistance.

Now, I should say that I suspect this only happens (at least for overweight, IR people) on a low-carb or low-carb keto diet. For anyone on a standard industrialised “Western” diet (SAD if you will), then I’d say all bets are off.

Similarly, for people who are superbly carb tolerant, then I think their body plays by a different rulebook, so it may, or may not apply.


(Dustin) #39

I’m glad you mentioned it, and I think it needs to be said. The title of these articles and statements make one to believe that for some reason since I’m doing keto, exercise magically stops progress. lol


(Alexandria) #40

Yay! So glad you asked this, my brain has also suffered. I couldn’t quite articulate.