Enjoying carnivore but getting frustrated with lack of results


(Alec) #41

As a new carnivore, I am all too aware of this issue. At the moment, I am focussing on weight loss, and that means (to me) not being overly concerned with macros… I am just eating fatty meat and eggs to satiety, and not worrying about macros.

I am guessing that I am eating 30% of calories or so in protein, and the balance in fat… I eat quite a bit of butter, home made mayo, eggs and cream, all of which has a high fat and medium to low protein content. This is not by macro design, this is just what I have fallen into and what feels right. I think my satiety signalling could well be limiting the protein that I eat.

The other way of thinking about this question is I don’t think there is much difference between what a keto person eats and a carnivore… the difference is the lack of veg, which is (or should be) a very small part of the calorie intake for a ketoer anyway. Therefore I am not sure I fully understand Dr Phinney’s concern.
Cheers
Alec


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #42

Not being concerned with macros (or even calories) is what the long-term carnivores all recommend, as well. Sean Baker eats about four pounds of meat a day; most other carnivores I’ve met eat only about half that. But as Dr. Baker said at Ketofest one year, “I’d never advise anyone to eat like me—I’m a freak.”


(John) #43

Thanks for pointing me to these.


#44

This is true; the two ways of eating are quite close.

I suppose the differences I would flag is that some carnivores restrict further than just vegetables, perhaps not having dairy - so no cheese, cream, and sometimes even butter. Some on keto use things like dark chocolate as a treat, and again, that’s pretty much out on carnivore.

The other aspect is that there seems to be a difference in approach when it comes to eating windows. On keto, an eating window and IF are reasonably encouraged - on carnivore, the dominant ideology is to eat when hungry.

I think also the food quantity can be a psychological shift. Lots of long term carnivores talk about consuming 2lbs of meat a day (1kg). I think that’s the bit where you see most push back - most new people are shocked by the amount of meat that others consume; I don’t ever recall eating 2lbs of meat on keto.

I think it all comes down to how you approach carnivore yourself - and similarly, how you approached keto. If your keto was predominantly comprised of meat and dairy with a small amount of vegetables and an even smaller amount of fruits, then there probably isn’t too much of a shift. If your keto was full of keto friendly desserts or keto breads in addition to the above, then you might notice more of a difference between the two ways of eating - particularly if you follow a strict carnivore plan.

As for Phinney, he raises some concerns here:

They predominantly seem to surround access to minerals that would’ve been found in traditional cultures by drinking broth or maybe eating organ meats that are no longer easily found (brain, perhaps).

The other aspect is possibly the protein intake, particularly if he’s dealing predominantly with patients with Type 2 Diabetes which adds another layer of complexity. (This is something I was always mindful of when listening to the dudes - their information was exceptional, but my personal circumstances were very different to theirs.)

Amber has a bit on her site about both of these things:

Shouldn’t I be limiting protein?

Most people don’t need to limit protein, because it is essentially self-limiting. As long as you are not averse to eating fat, you are very unlikely to overeat protein in an attempt to get enough calories. If you’re worried about the depth of ketosis, see the first question. Moreover, it turns out that most people can eat more protein than they think, and still be in ketosis. Some can eat more than twice the minimum before ketogenesis falls below the therapeutic range. When you eliminate all carbohydrate, your protein allowance increases. For every gram of carbohydrate you ate on a keto diet, you can eat two more grams of protein than you were eating before to get at most the same available glucose. An exception worth mentioning is that people with hyperinsulinemia, typically recovering type 2 diabetics, tend to have a higher blood sugar response and quicker reversal of ketosis in response to protein. If this is you, or you just have a more acute response for some other reason, you may decide to moderate protein intake. Nonetheless, it bears repeating that the benefits of a carnivorous diet do not appear to be directly dependent on ketone levels, but on eliminating plants.

and

First, there are several compelling anecdotes of long-term carnivores who appear to be in perfect health, and who do not eat any organs. I have to concede that this seems stable and safe for them.

On the other hand, everything I’ve learned about human evolution and human brains suggests that certain animal sourced nutrients were critical for the development of the brain on both ontogenetic and phylogentic scales. For example, DHA is necessary in high amounts for brain functioning. In the past, we probably got plenty of that from eating marrow and brains, or alternatively, cold water fish. I think a healthy diet would include these. My point still stands, though, that this is a concern only if you continue with the diet long term, and your needs may depend on your starting conditions.

The fact is that most low carb dieters are not eating organ meats either; not carefully ensuring that they get plenty of DHA, for example. If you find fault with a carnivorous diet on this basis, and don’t equally criticise a low carb diet, that’s selective enforcement of your principles.

Source: http://www.empiri.ca/p/eat-meat-not-too-little-mostly-fat.html


(Robin) #45

I am a former vegetarian, mostly because I loved them. But when I began keto and slowly eliminated food, my body started sending alarm bells when a certain food was not good for me. I found out my diverticulitis would ONLY flair up when I ate veggies. Oh no!
So, I didn’t “choose” to give them up. My body wrote me a very clear prescription. I haven’t had a flair up since then. If I’d had no issues, I’d probably still be regular keto. But every issue I had could be tackled by getting rid of some food. And watching/reading an expert tell me otherwise means nothing. You can always find experts to support or bash your choices. I feel fabulous, so, there you go…. Now veggies and I have a very long distance relationship.


(John) #46

:grin: As you may have surmised, I am torn between going full on carnivore, or mainly carnivore with a cheat day or two when I fry up some onions and bell peppers with strips of steak, or ground beef.

I guess I will work it out eventually, but as mentioned before, patience has never been my strong suit!

One thing for sure is 20/4 works well for me as it fits in with my hunger patterns.

Thanks again.


(Joey) #47

@PaulL I enjoyed this line, trying to envision a moral objection to eating plants. Brought a smile to my omnivorous day.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #48

I believe it was the late Arthur C. Clarke who wrote a short story in which food is routinely synthesised from minerals, and the characters are all ashamed of their ancestors who took the lives of innocent, defenceless plants.


(Joey) #49

Sequel plot: The inhumane mining of harmless minerals. It’s a jungle out there.


(Alec) #50

I have not had any normal exercise induced asthma since I have gone carnivore. I need to find what of my carb intake it was… could have been carbs in general, could be legumes (I used to eat a lot of peas), could be some specific plant toxin. But finding a fix for this chronic ailment is an absolute revelation for me. I wish I had known about carnivore 30 years ago…


(John) #51

Update.

Firstly I want to thank and congratulate you all for making this such an awesome site with an abundance of truly informative and inspiring information.

Just finished my 6th week. Down 2.1kg (though as mentioned before, weight lose was not my primary purpose).

But I know I am my own worst enemy! Having managed to drop the beer 6 months ago, plus now the sugar and carbs, I still have one thing I know I must do before I can reap the full benefits of carnivore.

Having dropped all the things I previously enjoyed eating and drinking, I still need to finish off by dropping the red wine - it appears to be my final sin and stumbling block. But it is going to be tough as it almost feels like the last pleasure left! But I am sure I will get there eventually.:grimacing:

The fatigue is still with me, but this may also partly be attributed to the high humidity and temperatures in the mid 30’s that we always have at this time of year.


(Allie) #52

Just do you, whatever works for you. Some days I’m carnivore, other days I’m keto, other (rare) days I’m high carb - it works for me.


(Robin) #53

Smart move, dropping the wine, I’m sure. But I understand it’s hard to give up the last “treat” at the end of a long day. However, it’s that very thinking that can get us in trouble. “I deserve this.” I need this.”
You got this!


(John) #54

I’m not that smart!! Still must find a way of doing it.:clinking_glasses:


(Robin) #55

As a recovered alcoholic, I’m not good at understanding moderation. So, you do you, you lucky person!


(Mark Rhodes) #56

@Jesty In your original post you said besides weight loss you were looking for mood improvement. Being a rather anal retentive engineer when I finally convinced my wife after almost 6 years of keto to go carnivore she finally relented. I created a spreadsheet to highlight some of her biggest issues. See she was suicidal prior to keto. Keto alone corrected that and we were grateful. But even after years of being keto she still had brain fog, memory issues, bodily pain. Her diagnosis was fibromyalgia, Ehlers-Danlos, Bi-polar and likely lipedema. I took blood labs and DXA in Spetember and Again in December. Blood labs looked awesome.

So this spreadsheet was scored nightly when prior to bed. A sorta n=1 epidemiological survey. It was accurate to herself which mattered. I created it so she could see progress or lack of. We started September 15, 2021

You can See a linear progression of memory that is astounding and even more so when you look at when dairy was removed. A 3 point jump. So I would recommend removing dairy based on this. The brain fog did the same. Anxiety has moderately improved however she also has begun a mindful meditation practice and yoga and has stuck to it also meaning other things are working. Correlation is not causation AND YET she has NOT been able to stay committed to much until at least 4 months of carnivore.

We took a week break at Christmas and did just keto. You can see the speed bump this produced.

Here you can see fatigue stayed down until that Christmas experiment. Her pain also increased but has started finally to taper down again.

As to weight. It hasn’t moved but 5 pounds. In fact her DXA showed she lost all lean. How could that be? Well if she does have lipedema and We have worked with Karen Ashforth who I learned of in researching lipedema made it clear that the fibrotic scar tissue between her fat cells could in essence show up on as DXA as lean. This would mean that the carnivore anti autoimmune properties were indeed working. Furthermore after talking with Siobhan Huggins and modifying her protocol along with Karen’s we are leveraging her weight back down. I have yet taken a second series of tape measures but will do another DXA and blood labs come April.

As for me a 57.11 male in pretty good shape and no mood issues, I lost 6 pounds of fat and gained 4 more pounds of lean. I keep trying to give up the HWC in my coffee and keep failing that. I have a pretty severe addiction to cream, ask @PaulL.

The type of carnivore you do will become dependent upon your needs. I thought I would be strict but find I do really enjoy some greens, onions and a keto treat now and then with no perceivable ill effects. My wife who craves these things cannot. This particular way of eating is highly individualized. Most of all it takes far more time than keto does. Oxalates alone take months to carry out of the system.

Good Luck to you


(Edith) #57

Wow! What a great post! I’m glad your wife appreciates the engineer in you and was onboard with the daily data taking.


(Mark Rhodes) #58

Notice anything? There is a correlation between overall calories and improved calm and lessened “sad”.


(John) #59

Wow!! That is awesome; and thank you so much for sharing such personal information.
I shall definitely cut out the dairy as of tomorrow and monitor the results. Fortunately, I have recently lost my taste for coffee and can get by on black tea.
I shall also attempt to get to a point of strict carnivore as soon as possible. But like you, currently I do need some chopped onion and bell peppers cut into strips of fried steak once or twice a week for variety.

Congratulations on the success you have had in making your wife’s life so much more enjoyable. She is indeed very lucky to have you in her life.

Kind Regards


(Mark Rhodes) #60

Well She is pretty special to me so we both do well to have each other. Yesterday we celebrated her birthday. She asked for a keto cake. After four months of carnivore it felt like “cheating” emotionally and she texted me today asking if I too was subject to frequent potty runs. I have not.

For a few years I was involved with fasting frequently. 5-10 days. Water coffee. I ran large Fung groups and was in communication with Megan et al. Knowing what I know today about carnivore I wouldn’t advocate fasting. During that time I reversed osteoporosis from -T1.9 to + T1.7. But more importantly I have reversed my heart disease and it continues to improve on carnivore. That story can be read here: https://ketopd.com/2021/08/13/how-keto-and-fasting-reversed-my-heart-disease-part-one/ I keep meaning to update this with like 6 more blog posts…anyway.

Eat when hungry. Eat past satiety erroring on the side of overeating. Ignore the clock. Eat again when hungry. That is a pretty true ZC path. Now then, do I follow it? No. Because work schedules and the desire for us to eat as a couple outweigh the benefits ( for now).