Endurance with Keto

#1

So I’m new.
Male, I’m 38, 5/11, now 192lbs.
It’s hard to find info on Keto in this regard. Please help!!!

I started last year around May. It went well and I dropped from 230lbs to 200 sometime around November. I race dirt bikes. To be exact its Enduro Races(woods racing).
Many races I start at 9am and don’t get off the bike until 2-3pm. Typically 50-60 miles and a hard pace.
So after the season end race in November I kept going but holidays and my work after first of year made it difficult to eat Keto. I travel a lot on road. All hours of night that time of year shootin proms and such.
So I gained back up to 208.
I found my main problem was I would keto M-F and cheat all weekend.
It was a yo-yo of 5-7 lbs a week!!!
Monday I’d hold water up to 209, by Friday I was back down to 202.
Realizing I had to stop that and go NO CHEATs for a very long period I started in June and haven’t cheated since. Cravings are gone. Eating much less. Sometimes once a day, 500-800 calories sometimes.
I’ve now hit my all time low since 1999 of 192lbs
But now my racing performance is a problem.
I can’t hammer as long as I once did.
About 30miles in to a race and it’s like a bear jumps on my back. Can’t have it.
It has gotten better in the last month or so, but I need help bad. I have a big one coming in November and they’re gonna try to destroy us. I can’t be tanking at mile 30.
This might be a 100 mile race in awful terrain.
I realize I’m not 100% efficient at using fat as fuel source. And that’s the main issue.
But I can’t wait another 9 months to get there. I need to go now!!!
My questions are these:

  1. I’ve read you loose muscle doing keto with working out. Sadly I do not and I feel weaker. I was Mt Biking last year, couldn’t this year.

  2. Should I carb load for these events and these events only. I’m concerned my glycogen stores are low and that’s why the muscle fatigue and “me” fatigue.

  3. If so, which carbs. What foods?

(Nathan Toben) #2

I am an ultramarathoner so keto translates much more clearly to my goals.

Your sport demands that you either clear your calendar for much longer than you have and go full keto and stick to a base building/optimized fat-metabolism phase (strictly aerobic efforts for months), gradually reintroducing quality + carbohydrates to effectively sustain fat-burning beyond your aerobic threshold…

or yeah carb up. I’d say train low until 4-6 weeks out and then add 1-2 quality session in the week in which you carb up before or during. If at that time you have developed good capacity for fat-burning, you could very well drop back into ketosis within a half a day after those efforts, especially if you get the timing and dosage of carbs right for your metabolism.

Despite your race being sustained threshold riding (it sounds), training at a very low intensity will still prepare you up surprisingly well (see Phil Maffetone’s MAF training method for more info). The real challenge doesn’t become effort but moving time. If you can let your total weekly moving time increase and guide you to an intriguing new level of bulletproof-ness, you will garner the symbiotic benefits of MAF + Keto.

The result will be an ability to go faster with less exertion; your riding economy and neuromuscular connections will be streamlined.

I also would adjust my goals if I were you. Blah, easier said than done, but if you want to be a keto athlete who can do enduro, hyper-individualization over seasons and years as opposed to weeks and months will be key.

Can’t stress that enough.

Super excited for you though and definitely think that if you are the type of personality who likes to lay a brick a day so you can have a mansion in a decade, there is no limit to how far keto can take your riding.

#3

So, my plan was to just stay the course and race in ketosis. But after two training sessions, today being better, it’s just not there. The problem with what I do is, with running or MT biking, you can only go as hard as your body will allow. Get tired, you’ll pedal slower. With what I’m doing I can still twist the throttle and kill my self.
So after today I’m concerned I’m not ready to race in ketosis. But afraid to pogo back n forth.
So if carb up just for the races(once a month) is the key. What is recommended. Obviously not cake. But which carbs? Baked potato? Sweet potato? Fettuccini Alfredo? Or just starchy carbs like Lima beans etc?

(Nathan Toben) #4

I think that will just take some experimenting in training. If it were me, i’d train my gut with the nutrition that i would be using in the race. So sure, sweet potatoes etc. but also simple/complex sugars that are palatable during the race such as gus, muir energy gels, dates, banana, whatever that comes out to be for you.

The point is, despite voices in the keto community saying otherwise. don’t be afraid of strategic carbohydrates as they pertain to high intensity performance. This is exactly the thing they are meant for, hunting down your prey. then afterwards, withdrawal back to keto.

#5

That was my thoughts before. I really hate to think of Keto as a diet. It’s really just the correct way to eat. Healthy veggies and meat. The same way people ate 1000s of years ago.
I’ve always done bananas PRE race and during for the help of cramps and just some carbs besides rice crispy treats
But when I went keto I haven’t had a banana since.
I also found out I was water loading too much. Getting rid of electrolytes and cramping during training.
So I dialed that back and went to propel water. Seemed to help
I stopped pickle juice on race day because I’d hold 9lbs of water for next 4 days afterword.
Sounds like I need to try this plan next week. Got a race coming that I don’t have anything to lose in.
Be a good day to just see
Saturday race. Maybe carb load Thursday and less carb load Friday

(Nicole Silvia) #6

I’m actually really curious about this as well. I enjoy road races, weight lifting and hoping to get good enough at pole to compete a little. I want to be able to do some decent races and the pole is almost entirely strength based.

I’m only a couple weeks into keto and am honestly nervous to do any strenuous workouts. I figure I can wait until I’m fat adapted, but I am also not sure how to fuel properly. Gu helped me a lot for distance running.

Nathan, I’m sorry, but I’m having a hard time following what you are saying. Are you only training certain times a year? If so, are you carb loading before every training session? Or just one that lasts 45 min. Or longer? What about strength training?

#7

Nicole, the problem is, it can take 12months to get fat adapted to a level where you can compete in high endurance while in ketosis.
For me, I’ve been in a couple months and it’s better, but I just flat hit a wall. Feels like I’ll never be able to compete without carbs but I’ve seen people who do it. And I mean high high level atheletes like a Zach Bitter. He holds record for 100miles in under 12hrs!!!
Problem is, I can’t wait. I have events this coming weekend, one that counts next weekend and then two weeks from there another
And then in November a huge one.
I can’t afford to hit the wall at these. But I’m afraid adding carbs will set me back.
But I’m gonna try it.
This week, Wednesday I’m gonna have a baked potato. Maybe some other nutritional carbs.
Bananas
A little more Thursday
And then Friday as well
Race Saturday
Hopefully I can hammer the whole race and not bonk

https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/zach-bitter-100-mile-american-record-holder-he-also-eats-almost-no-carbs/

(Edith) #8

Semi-interesting interview. There was really not any substance on his carb intake when he is at peak training.

(Nicole Silvia) #9

Ok, so you’re saying after a long while (1 year or so) it won’t matter at all?

I kinda feel like carbs should serve some purpose, no? It’s hard to believe that we weren’t meant to consume them at all. The fact that they are an immediate energy source, shouldn’t they be used as such? What is the purpose of fruit sugars and starches otherwise? They must fit in somehow.

I’m honestly asking, keto is new to me.

(Edith) #10

Could you be bonking partially because you’re not replenishing salt/electrolytes during your sustained effort? I don’t think Propel actually has that much added electrolytes. You probably need to take a good dose of salt at some point during your race.

(Nicole Silvia) #11

Right, my guess is that if training hard enough or long enough you would use a carb source for that time. You should be able to go back into ketosis pretty quickly, especially since you will be using that energy. So, if you’re in ketosis long term, it shouldn’t really hinder you overall because it’s a temporary shift.

This is what I was thinking, but again I’m not sure since it’s all new to me. I’m glad we are discussing it. I have a race mid Nov. Training starts 8 weeks out, I should be fat adapted by then. Not sure how to go about fueling.

#12

That article was just for reference. I follow Joe Rogan(UFC commentator, comedian, old Fear Factor guy) and he’s very knowledgeable and has a huge podcast. He had Zach on and they went in to great detail about diet
His podcast usually run 3hrs so it’s not condensed.
Zach did say he carb loads for some events because he felt he didn’t have the right drive for hide final pushes in the end
I want to go back and listen again. I was somewhat preoccupied during that section of it so it’s foggy.

(Nicole Silvia) #13

Please share what you learned.

I do know a professional boxer who switched to keto a while back to drop a weight class. She stuck with it because she liked it better. She eats a high carb fruit before her training sessions.

Still not sure that’s the best thing, because she is new to it too, but it makes sense to me.

#14

So we get carbs through veggies too. Broccoli, Squash etc. But in lower amounts. And with fiber and nutrients.
These days especially in this country we are consuming insane levels of carbs that weren’t humanly possible to consume 1000yrs who.
Try to consume 100grams of carbs in a day from veggies. You’d be miserable.
And that’s low compared to most people I know.
They’re closer to 200/day
But the carb intake really is more about sugar. The excess creates insulin spikes which leads to insulin resistance. Which leads to overdosing of insulin which is where the weight gain comes from. Insulin is a hormone that will create weight gain.
So Keto isn’t really a diet. It’s the way to eat. Natural veggies and meats with high fat. People 1000 years ago only lived in Ketosis. It wasn’t a magical state. It was just living.
Look at animals. They kill, go straight for organ meats and fat. It’s sustainable for long periods.
Humans were not consuming bread and noodles 1000yrs ago.
So we probably get our correct amount of carbs eating correctly but our bodies are not used to performing in that state.
We’re used to having excess carbs on tap ready at all times.
Look how quickly we adapt. In just a short few months, our thoughts change, eating habits and desires change. I am the worlds biggest sweet junkie alive. It is my cocaine!!! I buy a dozen doughnuts and eat 7 on way home. I can’t just do one. I’ll do all the cocaine LOL.
But now I don’t even care. I was forced to partake in Bday cake at my daughters bday this month.
No longer crave bread or pasta or cake.

#15

So Gatorade has 270 sodium and 75 potassium
Propel has 270 sodium and 70 potassium
But without the carbs and sugar
I believe the sugar is a problem in endurance sports.
I could be wrong. But seems like I e read that sugar drinks are bad during performance.
I could hit pickle juice PRE race and see if that helps but generally salt and potassium doesn’t help in energy, it’s more for cramping muscles
I haven’t had much issue with cramps since propel

(Edith) #16

For endurance workouts, burning fat is all one needs. High intensity workout such as cross fit and strength training; and I would imagine, boxing as well, require targeted carbs from what I understand.

I ran my first half marathon in May. I am a slow poke and it took me 2.5 hours. I had a couple of pieces of bacon pre-race but did not need any food supplementation during the race and for a few hours afterwards. I, however, added salt to my water halfway through.

Edit: but… I had been eating keto for almost a year at that point.

#17

From everything I’ve read and listened to, it truly takes a year to become fat adapted(not ketosis) to have your body perform on fat and not carbs.
Just that most people like myself end up in a sticky situation where we can’t wait. I just don’t have any info on whether or not I can stay in ketosis, carb load a couple days before, perform, and then drop back in to ketosis…and that actually not gender my long term goal of being fully fat adapted. Like it’s confusing my body on what to use for fuel. But maybe I’m not giving enough credit to our bodies. Maybe it can do that just fine. And a year later reach a point to where we don’t need to carb load.
It’s hard to find anyone that can say for sure. And then everyone is different. And when you ask this question to most people, they :poop: the Keto diet all together with bias against it and saying this is why your body won’t work.
You take a human make from 1-2000 years ago who lived almost his whole life in ketosis, and it then against someone from today, they’d mop the floor with us.
I read that still today there are tribes that still live just like that, and they do what’s called persistence hunting. This means they hunt deer by chasing it on foot until it drops and dies!!! WRAP YOUR MIND AROUND THAT LOL!!!
They chase a deer…until IT drops and dies from exhaustion. Maybe 1% of our population could do that before they themselves dropped and died You think they’re carb loading or not fat adapted. But they’ve never been introduced modern man made carbs.
They’re not eating bread and spaghetti and baked potatoes.
It’s not available to them.

(Nicole Silvia) #18

I understand completely what you’re saying. Except I thought fat adaptation happened within 6-8 weeks?

I personally eat less than 20g of carbs per day, but that wouldn’t fuel an athletic performance for me. So I thought Nathan was saying what I stated earlier, use them as an immediate energy source for performance and go back to ketosis after. I’d like him to clarify because being an ultra runner, he’d know.

I don’t believe humans were ALWAYS in ketosis, because fruit and sugars are also natural and I’m sure we ate them when we could get them. Which means, we were probably in and out of ketosis depending on the availability of these things.

I have an athletic background. I ate 200g of carbs daily in my prime and performed very well like that. I believe I can changel my body with keto and be in a good way, but may need the carb push for anything that’s very long or very strenuous.

Ok, so I trained for a half marathon this spring. It was the longest race for me and so I had to learn to fuel. I only needed to “fuel” for workouts that exceeded 1 hour. I learned. Those are pretty long runs. At first I just used electrolyte drinks. Then I tried Gu, which is about 21g of carb per packet, also tons of potassium and electrolytes. You use them 45 min. into the run so it has time to absorb before the 1st hour. I have to say, they made a huge difference on my long runs. AND you use them every 45 min. Until the end. I could literally feel around the 1 hr mark if I did not take the GU. This leads me to believe that I was indeed burning those 21g of carbs during the run since I felt the depletion happening.

My point is, that I THINK what it means and what Nathan was saying, is keto IS a lifestyle, but if you into a performance that takes significant endurance that you can and should utilitize carbs as they were meant to be utilized. You should go back into ketosis pretty quickly because you will use those carbs up if done right.

This is my take. If anyone understand’s this better, please chime in

(Edith) #19

I have a feeling if you add carbs and burn them up as a result of your activity, your body will happily return to ketosis without any trouble.

#20

Here is the episode of video podcast with a Zach Bitter if anyone is interested.
Caution, Joe can drop some F bombs here and there.
So if that offends you be prepared
But it’s very informative.