Elimination Diet, calories, protein and fat

(Michael) #1

Hello Carnivores!

I am trying to resolve my IBS issues by an elimination diet. I just did a 247 hour fast without any food at all, and I am now going to start eating the Lion’s diet (nothing but meat/organs and salt) for a few more weeks and then if things go well, start introducing butter, eggs, cheese or whatever at 2 week intervals until I have a solid list of safe foods.
Due to just fasting for 10 days, I also want to ramp up my RMR by eating 3000 calories/day. If I eat the fattiest meats, I still could at BEST high 50% fat/protein, which would put my grams of fat and protein at about 3000/13=230 grams of each (and this is probably wishful thinking at every meat containing 50% fat - most are much less, especially since I am eating grass fed beef which is leaner). OK, I can eat that much volume easily enough — BUT, that is too much protein for me, a type 2 diabetic. I do not think I should eat more than at most 150g of protein a day (I now weigh 66 kg, so 150 would be quite a large amount at 2.27 g/kg body weight).
So, looking for ways to greatly increase my pure animal fat intake in a way that isn’t just drinking warm bacon fat. My best thought is to get beef suet, and melt it, and dip my meat into it (have never tried this). Anyone have any other good ideas outside of using fat drippings in existing cooked meats?

(Carnivore for the win) #2

I cook ground beef in a cast iron pan at fairly high heat. I add some butter at the end and allow it to clarify. Then I put it in a glass container, without a lid, and cool it in the fridge, then on some ice. This way I get all the fat from the ground beef and just the fat from the butter. I find it is way easier to digest once it is cool and solid. That was the way I was able to start carnivore and, have used the technique almost daily since November 2019. I find it very satiating. I do the same with blade/chuck roasts, but add the butter on cold while I am eating it.

#3

It’s easy for me as my main meat is pork and there is no limit for the fat/protein ratio there (today I found my pork shoulders not nearly fatty enough - unusual but it happened - and added something significantly fattier… processed but I could buy raw pork belly if I wanted, with the chosen fattiness but I can cut it later to suit my goals anyway. today I only used the fat tissue part with my shoulder roast)… But some added fat still may help a little. Or much, many people add a significant amount of extra fat to their lean beef…

I couldn’t even eat 3000 kcal meat (and probably wouldn’t think I need it or not for long), too satiating. Well that’s where added fat could help me out… I don’t even know your needs and tastes or that what does a 10 day fast to someone’s metabolism. Probably usually not much but we all are different…

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #4

What is the problem with protein and Type II diabetes?

In general, eating a low-carb/keto diet keeps the insulin/glucagon ratio low, regardless of the amount of protein consumed, so I wouldn’t have expected a problem for diabetics. What am I missing here?

(Ohio ) #5

Gluconeogenesis?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #6

Gluconeogenesis? I thought the idea that excess protein was automatically converted to glucose, whether needed or not, had been discredited.

(Ohio ) #7

Gluconeogenesis takes place all the time in both kidneys and liver. Never stops because of all the biological processes that only use glucose.

A very young doctor informed on this.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #8

It is inhibited by high insulin levels, however, such as we experience when eating a great deal of carbohydrate (as recommended by the dietary guidelines). According to Prof. Benjamin Bikman, the stimulus for gluconeogenesis is a high glucagon level, which is seen only when carbohydrate intake is sufficiently low.

The body is efficient and does not waste energy on unnecessary processes. There is no need to make additional glucose when the bloodstream is already flooded with glucose from a high-carbohydrate diet. Especially given that hyperglycaemia is so dangerous to the body.

(Ohio ) #9

I suspect carnivore confirmation bias with the first bit. I’m not sure our bodies are as efficient as you’re making it out to be. Steve Phinney has thrown me in the thought process that gluconeogenesis is our bodies way to convert protein to glucose because excessive protein manifests worse problems than excessive glucose.

(Michael) #10

Hi Paul,

Happy to look at any medical publications on this issue if you have some links (please?). For my case, while wearing my CGM, it seemed pretty clear that large amounts of protein raised my blood sugar levels (I will try some zero carb tests when able in future). Not by a large amount, but typically about 1 mmol/L, so large enough that is was noticeable. When I first started KETO, despite the theory behind it, my glucose would fall after eating just protein. Once my levels fell down substantially (into close to normal ranges) the bump appeared. I also noticed that VERY large protein amounts rose my glucose by more than the average of 1, while small amounts of protein raised my glucose by less than 1. Lot of unknowns still, but I feel that anything more than 150 g (which is already higher than most at 2.33 g/kg bodyweight) is the most I would like to be running at - if possible.

(Michael) #11

Hi Elliot,

I took your suggestion and used the chilled Beef Suet cut up into Sprinkle sized pieces. Next time I think I will add on from a side as opposed to mixing it up on my plate.
image

(Michael) #12

Hi Shinita,

I was going off a journal snipit from another poster. Here is what they posted with a link to a paywall medical paper (so I will ignore that part of it)

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As you can see, you are correct by saying not too much, but you might have been surprised to find out that RMR goes up for the first day you do NOT eat. Anyway, just thought I would share.

I do want to raise my RMR, but I also wanted to add back a few pounds of fat, or at least maintain, which is challenging when controlling protein on a carnivore diet.

(Carnivore for the win) #13

Looks good. I like to have the fat on the side as well, especially if I’m eating hot food. Then I give every bite of warm meat a cold fat hat. Once the meat is cold, I don’t mind it if I pre mix the fat in.

#14

Very much so!

#15

You can’t just slam yourself with 3k/day to raise an RMR, you need to have somewhat of an idea what your RMR is, and reverse diet up to that amount over time. I’ve raised mine from 1700 to 3400, it takes time to get it up.

Why? Eat the fat that comes along with your food, unless you’ve got something that requires tons of fat, there is no sense to forcing it in.

Being a T2D has nothing to do with your protein intake. 150g would be the absolute minimum I’d eat at your weight, assuming you’re working out and trying to get some muscle on, it’d be higher.

(Michael) #16

Hi Lfod,

I was eating 3000 calories for a week before my fast as well (but I found it easy with Heavy Whipping Cream), so just brining it back up before I look at changes in diet from very low carbs to zero carb and higher protein. Since it should not have fallen too much, I am just trying to get back to baseline (should only take a few days to a week to return to place before the fast). Also, I would like to add a bit more body fat (and muscle!) if I am able with zero carbs.

I had this discussion with Paul yesterday. Dr. Bikman disagrees that protein is not important with T2D and I will defer to his suggestions. Here is the link I put in that post, look at minute 30 onward to hear his noting that protein will raise insulin more than glucagon for T2D until their insulin resistance is closer to non T2D levels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3fO5aTD6JU at which point protein is no longer a concern on a low or zero carb diet.

(Bob M) #17

I think for those who are T2 (or really T1), protein might be an issue. There can be a difference between insulin and glucagon, for instance. This means protein might cause higher or lower blood sugar, depending on what’s messed up.

When Jimmy Moore tried a PSMF (protein sparing modified fast), he got low blood sugar. One theory was that his glucagon was inhibited. Though they also had someone who said it might be a genetic issue.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #18

There is such a thing as glucagon resistance, though it is rare. Also, in studies on mice that have been bred to be insulin-deficient, they become diabetic if they can still secrete glucagon, but they don’t become diabetic if their ability to secrete glucagon is also removed. Dr. Robert Lustig discusses this in a couple of his lectures, and Peter Hyperlipid also mentioned it in a blog post a few years ago, I believe.

(Bill) #19

But that’s precisely why we have excretion systems in place to get rid of stuff the body doesn’t want…