the main thing about keto/LCHF is limiting insulin production… right?
hormones not calories. right?!
fat isn’t the most satiating for you but i have known to be ridiculously full for many hours from eating only half of an avocado.
the main thing i took from this video is that there is a “shut off” for consuming fats/protein where there isn’t one for carbs.
please take the time to actually read the comments/information given.
in the event that you are genuinely looking for answers we are trying to help but you have to be willing to at least consider things that are outside of your current scope.
if not…high protein works for you…that is your n=1…
why not leave it at that?
why do you need everyone to agree with you?
why isn’t your personal experience good enough for you?
I read everything that is given, I may not understand it but I reserve the right to question it.
Likewise I consider everything as well.
If you tell me that you are full from fat, then that is fine. I don’t doubt it, however it is my experience that I’m concerned with just as you are concerned with yours. I think that’s reasonable
The real problem I have is that there are many different opinions and interpretations that I have come across as to what is the correct thing to do, amount to eat, and so forth. Each group that advocates an approach is as sincere and as certain as you are. I’m in the mddle. I don’t know who is right and who is wrong unless I try and ask questions. Unfortunately many of these groups do not like being questioned I have found. So when you ask “why not leave it at that”, it isn’t that simple because the information isn’t neutral, for instance other sources say things like eating a lot of protein affects ketosis. Or if you don’t eat x amount of fat then you’ll struggle.
When you factor in individual tolerances, such as my need for more protein, and the difficulty of managing satiety (at least IME), what should be a simple process becomes a lot more complicated.
For example, I joined a facebook group called #ketosavedme and the guy who runs it, while well meaning and sincere, will tolerate NO questions at all. It is either his way or the highway, to the point where discussion is impossible. When I try to point out that, again, other sources say something else and that I have no way to know who’s correct without asking for evidence, he loses his mind. It’s sad because I believe him to be a good guy. I think he wants to help people, but this appraoch is making my experience of keto phenomenally difficult.
So i don’t ask questions to be awkward and I am not a troll. I simply want to know that what I’m doing is healthy and is working for me. I’m sure you feel the same.
There are 2 strategies for increasing fat in your diet, a long term one and a short term one.
The long term method is to add fat to tomorrows meal. So if you are still hungry after eating a meal, next time you prepare that meal increase fat in it’s preparation.
I had dinner with Dr Phinney last November where I saw him use the short term strategy, and that is having the meat in your meal separate from a fatty sauce and adding the sauce as you need. We were eating from a buffet and Dr Phinney loaded up his plate with seafood (mostly protein) and asked the server for a dish of butter which he ladled onto his fish and shrimp. He had around half a cup of butter with his meal. I had a lot less because I wasn’t as hungry. I have a lot more lean mass, but also more body fat - so perhaps my body fat was contributing more than his to our respective fueling.
We both ate to satiety, pretty close to the same meal of fish, and one of us had about 100g of butter additional.
GNG is glucose demand driven, but dietary protein still might be able to increase demand for glucose. In people who are adapted to fueling their brains on ketones, one specific amino acid (aspartate) can decouple ketone production which can increase glucose demand 4 fold.
honestly no one can answer this for you…or me.
we all have loosely similar goals (some ppl it’s diabetes management, some ppl it’s fat loss, some ppl it’s muscle building with fat loss, some ppl it’s improved energy, etc, etc etc) with the common tool of reducing carb intake for insulin reduction/hormone regulation.
we have to figure out what works for us as individuals. we can only share information and experiences.
some ppl can’t tolerate dairy or artificial sweeteners…some can.
some ppl need to be as close to zero carb as possible…some can go much higher than 20g.
some ppl choose to fast…some don’t.
it’s just different for everyone.
In the discussions concerning GNG and protein affecting ketosis, people often overlook the other fact of protein being insulinogenic and even though protein only has 50% the effectiveness of stimulating insulin relative to glucose, Amy Berger contends that the rate of GNG is insufficient to cause anti-ketogenic effects in the typical time-frame experienced by someone consuming protein, so whether or not that is true I think we need to consider that it is protein raising insulin that’s causing a reduction in ketones.
If you have more amino acids than you need for maintenance, then you burn it for energy instead of other substrates (glucose, fat, ketones). I think the only exception is alcohol which goes to the head of the queue.
To burn an amino acid your liver must first turn it into a carbohydrate. All amino acids have a nitrogen atom in an amine group (NH2) … it’s how the amino acid gets it’s name. One (Cysteine) also has a Sulphur atom. So there is a bunch of chemical manipulation (which takes energy to run) just to turn these things into fuel for the fire, but it also makes chemical waste. Mostly ammonia but also methylamine which has a fishy odour ( and if you watched Breaking Bad you’ll know it’s a precursor to cooking meth ), hydrogen Sulphide better known as rotten egg gas.
You know I might have to try the spontaneous thing. Usually I’m a planner but my body has not been very cooperative. I certainly didn’t plan Keto LOL. I’m just such a food hound I’m afraid I won’t have the staying power. Guess I won’t know for sure unless I try it! Thanks for the spontaneous idea
Do you know the Serenity Prayer? The existence of different opinions and interpretations falls into the category of things you cannot change.
Things you can change include how you actually eat… which piece of advice you try out. Most people will acknowledge that what worked for them will not necessarily work for you - but you’ve got to eat something, right?
back to the fat to satiety thing. Is the problem that eating fat doesn’t satiate you? Or that it does but you’re worried that it’s unhealthy? Or something else I haven’t thought of?
I disagree on the not changing the question point.
Whether fat or protein are more satiating is not an issue I contemplate in improving my health and choosing my meals within a ketogenic lifestyle, neither are calories. I don’t restrict calories on eating days and I lose weight and have improved my strength and endurance while eating more calories that prescribed by all macro calculators. I don’t follow fat to satiety, but I recognize it works for many and I may need to adjust to this paradigm as my body fat decreases.
If ketosis is the path you want to continue eat meals without fat, there is no rulebook that says you can’t. If you have enough fat stored, your body is efficient at accessing this stored energy for your level of activity, and you stay in ketosis eating only protein and carbs with minimal fat you’ve found your personal macro blend that sits well with your palate and interest in calorie restriction.
I am not 100% convinced that a high fat diet is 100% healthy, I think it’s true that fat doesn’t make you fat. But the science suggests that eating fat isn’t unhealthy, not that is is healthy. Those are two different statements.
So adding huge amounts of fat - 200g a day as some macros recommend for maintenance - is a huge proposition.
More importantly it is not easy to add: covering fat over every meal in order to get what you need just makes the meal unpalatable if it is swimming in fat. And BPC drinks are sickly
Claimed as what? How can you measure your own satiety? It’s a personal thing, either you’re full or you’re not.
My personal n=1 is:
fat alone won’t make my stomach feel physically full, as eg eating a whole head of brokkoli would. But, after a few minutes I feel sated trough fat alone, even if the fat portion on the plate looked small. I also find, that this will last longer, than the satiation I get from vegetables or protein.
Chances are, I overeat on pure fat, because I eat quicker than satiety kicks in.
Since I know this to be true for me, I trick my hunger signals with vegetables. So I can have lasting satiety with minimal insulin effect:
I’ll have a big plate of something green, bit of protein and then add fat to that with a sauce, nuts, cheese, bacon whatever… fat makes everything taste better… no problem with the right recipes!
This way, I get the quick satiety from the volume of the vegetable, stop myself from overeating, but also get longterm satiety from fat.
Again, that’s only true for me. You’ll have to try out for yourself what works best, figure out the right proportion. There’s no shortcut.
“Isn’t unhealthy” means there is no negative health consequence from doing it, on average in a population. “Is health neutral” would be another way of saying the same.
“Is healthy” means… what, exactly? You could interpret it to mean there is a health benefit from doing it, or again that there is no negative consequence from doing it.
Now, personally, if something comes with no downside but also no upside, that is something I can take or leave. But you’ve also got to look at the alternatives, which in most cases is higher carbs. And for a large proportion of people, higher carbs are problematic. Processed carbs and sugar lead to rampant inflammation, and even minimally processed carbs produce an insulin response and higher blood glucose in those so inclined, which I am.
So, for me, the upside of higher fat is it enables me to eat lower carb. By the use of leafy veg as @JesS90 says, I get volume. By the use of fat I get flavour and satiety, without a significant insulin/glucose response. So, I call fats healthy.
And most importantly, I feel good. Great, in fact. Health is not all about statistical models and probabilities. It’s also about what’s acceptable and life-enhancing to any given individual.
I’m not arguing from a position of claiming expertise. I could be completely wrong and still responding to years of dietary orthodoxy. I can tell you that my local doctor service does not accept this way of eating as anything other than extreme.
Back in the day, I used to tell people I couldn’t possibly go low carb because it was the carbs that satisfied me… and part of that was volume - quantity of stuff that takes up space in my stomach. I said that just meat and vegetables would not be satisfying. I said that, without having actually tried it, just by thinking about taking the potatoes away from a plate of meat, potatoes and vegetables. What was left looked dry, boring, and not enough.
When I actually tried it, it was different - and I am so glad that, right at the beginning of my journey, I heard about low carb HIGH FAT, and that the HIGH FAT was an essential part of how it worked. I took away the potatoes, increased the amount of green vegetables and put butter on them. I had about the same quantity of food going into my stomach, but I stayed full for longer because of the fat.
Over time, I found I didn’t need as many vegetables as I was piling on my plate in the early days. And, actually, I didn’t need as much fat as I sometimes added. It’s changed as I’ve gone along. But I would never have found that out if I hadn’t piled all that fat on at the beginning.
It is easy to add fat, there are have been plenty examples given, but you choose not to do it from what appears to be your aversion to fat. I and many others on the forum do not find fat unpalatable and many just love BPC.
A ketogenic diet is low-carb, high-fat and moderate protein, but it sounds like you don’t like fat, so maybe this just isn’t for you. Some people do well on low-carb, high-protein and since eating protein seems to make you not hungry, then just eat that way.
This as the same thing I was thinking. He’s mixing an objective measurement of fat grams with a subjective feeling of satiety which has no measurement.
It’s like asking a firefighter to bring only a certain amount of water in order to put out a fire - maybe the estimate is correct, but I’m pretty sure they connect to those fire hydrants and use more than they brought in their trucks. However for this OP, I’d add that the fireman don’t like the water in the same way the OP claims to find fat unpalatable.
Kind of. Protein actually has 8 calories per gram, but we use 4 calories for calculations because they try to factor in the amount of energy needed to digest the protein. That’s from the CICO perspective, but doesn’t consider hormonal changes, so in the end I think protein will help stimulate BMR at some level, but I think most of the consumed energy is from the thermic effect of food.
Same here, I’ve recently made some mistakes eating too much protein while hovering around 0 carbs and really, really enjoy eating fat instead. Bear in mind that the OP calls fat “unpalatable”.
Agreed with @Becky, if the OP has found something that works, then just do it.
