Early Eating Window Instead of Fasting, Anyone?

fasting
(Allie) #42

Absolutely this.

#43

To me, 12lbs in a year is the slow and steady. In 3 months it’s a great pace I never could hope for!
But it depends, it’s understandable to expect a quicker fat-loss when one is quite heavy, male, muscular etc. But there are individual differences and of course, we should eat right, it’s not always easy even on keto.
I would expect good results if I put in much effort but sadly, it doesn’t always work like this.

#44

Do what works for you and test. Fasting does lose its effectiveness over time. Dr. Fung uses fasting in his practice as a way for the body to begin the process of learning to burn fat as a fuel source again. Some people with T2D have a difficult time accessing fat for energy; even simple walking can boost their blood lactate level well above 2. The problem with extended-day fasting over just a few years is that it can bring on complications such as the loss of muscle mass. As we get older, it is very important to maintain muscle mass or minimize its loss.

(Kirk Wolak) #45

Yes… While I don’t agree with CARB cycling at all…

Too much fasting… Especially if it’s just to make a number on a scale happy,
is pushing your luck.

I’ve done it. You get “Fasting Fatigue”… And your body doesn’t want you to fast.
SBG Coach Raymond likes to cycle fasting/feeding… Which is more natural.

But you can fall into any rut (always 16:8, it’s effectiveness wanes).
Always OMAD, it’s effectiveness wanes. The “obvious” bump comes from longer fasts. BUT having tried OMAW (One meal a week)… You can go too far. Your desire to eat OPENS UP on that day, and the second week… Fasting was horrible.

Coach Raymond preaches… You should NOT be white knuckling your fasts.

Dr. Fung uses Fat Fasting (Eat one fatty food, as often as you want, until you start fasting again, naturally).

But build a lifestyle out of it.
I used to fast EVERY WEEKEND. But I realized I don’t want my body to NEED that to maintain my weight… Sometimes, I’d like to go somewhere… And actually have a meal on a weekend…

#46

I think it is really more like 6. The first 6 were within the range that I have been on for a while. The second 6 were definitely new. So I guess if I was really lucky 36 lbs in a year but I am sure I will stall well before that happens.

Actually I have barely fasted in the last month. That is what makes this weight loss pretty interesting as I usually can only lose while fasting, keto just maintains the loss. I do not consider IF windows to be real fasting as I am still eating plenty on a daily basis. I am not carb cycling either, or at least not on purpose, I have simply been less strict. I still do not eat many carbs but will for example put two spoonfuls of rice in my chili. I will not pick out the beans the way I normally would

#47

I had heard the opposite, that dieting and weight loss cause you to lose muscle, whatever the diet, but fasting, IF you have a substantial amount to lose, does not trigger the same pathways. I have no idea if it is true and I am not an expert

#48

After three years, Dr. Peter Attia stopped his extended-day fasting as he noticed a reduction in his muscle mass (10 lbs+). Keep in mind that he is a healthy 50-year-old and has the data to back it up. “The risk of losing muscle mass at my age is not worth the benefits of fasting.”

This may be the case for some people but certainly not for all.

The problem with extended-day fasting over just a few years is that it can bring on complications such as the loss of muscle mass. As we get older, it is very important to maintain muscle mass or minimize its loss.

One could argue that if you have substantial weight to lose, then it might be better to lose as much weight as possible, regardless of whether it’s fat or muscle. The benefit of not being obese may trump some muscle mass loss.

(KM) #49

Attia is huge, though. There may be a difference if you have slabs of gym muscle (potentially filled with more glycogen than the average bear) vs. a physique without a lot of extra muscle bulk to begin with.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #50

This is not quite accurate. The key is the presence or absence of daily protein intake. There is a certain irreducible daily nitrogen loss from the body, and this nitrogen cannot come from any other source but amino acids (in other words, protein). We can’t, unfortunately, make use of the nitrogen in the air.

Since the body has no way of storing amino acids, this means that the nitrogen the body needs to use must come either from the amino acids we are eating, or from the amino acids in existing tissues. This means that during fasting there is an inevitable tissue loss, since we’re not eating. It’s not much, but if adds up over a long-term fast. The question is how much will be lost, and that appears to be highly individual.

Something to consider: tissue loss also goes by the name of “autophagy.” The problem comes with directing the body to consume the tissues we don’t want, instead of the tissues we want–there is no way to do this. We have to just trust our body to get it right.

Another thing to bear in mind is that some muscle loss can actually be a good thing. When we are very fat, we need a lot of muscle to haul it around, so when we lose a lot of fat, we also lose a certain amount of muscle. This is benign, since the body is conservative and doesn’t maintain tissue it doesn’t need. This loss of a small amount of unneeded muscle may be what makes fasting safe for fat people. But that is just my speculation; don’t take it as Gospel.

(Kirk Wolak) #51

Paul, first, thanks… I always appreciate what you share.
This is a great example of clarifying information that’s useful.

Let me add. My AFTER DEXA scan showed that I had lost over 1.25 POUNDS of BONE when I lost 120+ lbs of weight. Making the point that your body will shrink your bones as you don’t demand that much of them any more. (One more reasons seniors should do resistance training)

#52

I don’t want any of that. I want all the muscle that I can have :smiley: So fat-loss must be accompanied with strength training so there wouldn’t be any unneeded amount! :wink:

#53

Whether it gets it right I cannot speak to but Autophagy is all the rage in the Longevity community and they talk about supplements and medications that encourage autophagy.

Fung I believe talked a lot about the body eliminating old misfolded proteins during fasting and he claimed that even among patients who have lost 100 lbs or more, if they have fasted they rarely need any excess skin removal surgery. Skin contains a significant amount of protein.

If someone is concerned then they should do a dexa or other scan but it is not something I want to bother with

As for Attia, I enjoy listening to him even if I do not always agree. One thing I said at the outset

Although Attia may have had weight to lose when he started on this journey, by all appearances does not anymore. If I was in his situation, assuming I had no other health challenges, I might not fast either. One comment I read from him a while back is that his food preferences and eating windows have changed over time. If I were to speculate it may be in reaction to changes in his weight or insulin levels as he got leaner but I am simply guessing and am not in the field

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #54

This is all true. And if the body has such sources of amino acids, chances are it will go after them and leave the muscle alone.

However, every protein has its lifetime, be it seconds or years, so autophagy is going on all the time. Generally, the amino acids freed up can go back into making new tissue.

(Kirk Wolak) #55

I’ve experienced this while fasting with Dr. Fungs clinic.
I’ve had 2 scars just go away! (Well kinda. If I stretch the skin,
I can find them again). But one was VERY obvious (between my fingers).

Now I have to work to find it.

Our bodies are truly amazing!

#56

Had you tried fasting on your own?

What was the benefit with doing it with the clinic over doing it alone?

(Kirk Wolak) #57

I started in 2018. TBH, fasting had a bad rap even back then.
Worse, people like Thomas DeLaurer gave horrible “general” advice.
Including “Diet soda is fine while fasting”… Back then…

So, I had tried. Everyone was scared to death for me.
And it did not work as planned. I simply stalled. I lost no weight.
I was starting with OMADs, but consuming Diet soda all day long.

I was in a bad place mentally and physically. I am normally a tightwad,
and a good saver, but I gave myself permission to spend $5k finding answers. And so I ponied up some of that money, and got training.

As an engineer… I BARELY EVER regret paying for training/knowledge/experience. Because it’s a force multiplier for me.

The absolute benefit. Well, they spelled it ALL out in detail.
The dos/don’ts. What is breaking a fast, what is just dumb (drinking diet soda)… Zero Calories DOES NOT mean Zero IMPACT!

Finally, when you are “coaching yourself”, it’s easy to throw the towel in, and cut a 24hr fast to an 18hr fast, etc. etc. etc.

Currently, I joined SBG with Coach Raymond. While I only used Fung’s Clinic for about 8 months. And fasted ALOT after that…

I do find having a coach helps me stay focused.
Also, Coach Raymond has a TON of experience, and his insights on fasting while NOURISHED is interesting. I am just starting my 3rd month with the group, and with him.

And I just finished 10 days of ADF.

I think fasting is ISOLATING… So finding a way to do it as part of a group has social reinforcing benefits as well!

#58

Wanted to give my update.

Still losing weight slowly. Trying to end eating by 5 most days unless there is a special occasion, and honestly, my definition of special isn’t very special. Lost about 16 lbs. I am about 6-10 lbs away from the stall point I have not been able to get past this century! Would love to lose 70 lbs

I am not that focused and while I’ve been low carb for the most part, I doubt I’m in ketosis. Still weight is coming off.

I still find I do not enjoy lunch, forget to eat (I heated up some chicken and forgot about it, found it, heated it up again I forgot about it again, and finally had it just now). Most days I am fine not eating dinner but I do get hungry. However, I do find that it’s easier to resist and to eat nothing then to eat small portions of acceptable food at night.

Friends who have not seen me in a while comment and I kind of shrug it off. This is not because I don’t wanna talk about it but because my kids have commented that I and other adults talk about weight too much and we associate thin with good. I would like to stop making that association as I really do believe it is very difficult for most people to lose weight, but it is still one of the last permitted prejudices.

The interesting part is I spent the first two weeks of November away. The first week of being away I did have dinner every night and one night ate so much that I couldn’t move. The second week was with older family members who don’t eat dinner anyway most nights. Even with that when I got home, I was thinner and felt thinner. I don’t think it’s time restricted eating as not eating past a certain time. Which is related but not the same

#59

Another update.

Ate what I wanted over Thanksgiving as we were away. Then got a cold at the end of the weekend which was pretty nasty. Better now and I have lost at least 20 lbs from July. It is definitely noticeable. I am about 4 lbs from my stall point so will see if we can get past it. Went to a lunch party over the weekend. I was starving and ate the pasta and salad that was being served (nothing else was available). Still losing weight

One weird thing, I do not seem to be as out of control as normal. What I mean by that is when I had the pasta at the party, it really was not that appealing and after a “normal” serving or two I was able to stop. They had really excellent dessert and I had a couple of cookies but was able to stop. Yesterday I went back to eating low carb normally without missing anything.

Still do not love eating during the day. At night I still miss food but it is like when you are fasting, you realize you can have it the next day. The problem is the next day all the things that I really thought about eating the night before are not as important anymore

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #60

I was not always so fortunate, being a carb addict and all. However, I find that what you describe is much more my experience on carnivore. I can look at carbs and not want them, and even have a few and not binge. It’s such a relief!

#61

Me too! That is the bizarre part. Normally if I have a slice I want to eat half the pie!

The only thing I forgot to mention is I seem to be getting colds more frequently which is not unusual for me but annoying. I had a severe cold mid September and again at the end of November, if it is less than three months that is too soon