Early Eating Window Instead of Fasting, Anyone?

fasting
#21

I do that all the time. Hasn’t hurt me none or halted progress in any way.

(Peter - Don't Fear the Fat ) #22

Thanks to low carb my health has improved and I’m finding I can relax things a bit. Enjoy life and join the families meal times etc … not eating their rice etc of course

(Bob M) #23

I hypothesize there’s an insulin response – higher in the morning if you eat later. Two problems with my hypothesis: (1) It’s almost impossible to test without an insulin meter; (2) I’m not sure what a higher morning insulin level means.

#24

I have never bothered to measure such things, except with my yearly bloods. They come in just fine, except for cholesterol and I just told my doc what I thought of that. He didn’t argue.

#25

Yes and no. https://www.virtahealth.com/blog/dawn-phenomenon

The physiological processes that underlie the dawn phenomenon occur in everyone regardless of whether they have diabetes or not. The difference lies with insulin and how our bodies react to it. Healthy individuals secrete enough insulin and are insulin sensitive enough to counteract a rise in morning blood glucose. However, someone with prediabetes or type 2 diabetes is insulin resistant and/or may not secrete enough insulin, which then allows blood glucose to rise.

This may be further compounded in the early morning hours because our body is more insulin resistant compared to the rest of the day¹ causing an elevated fasting glucose to remain elevated longer. Progression of prediabetes and type 2 diabetes is likely to result in a worsening of the dawn phenomenon as insulin function and sensitivity continue to diminish.

According to this you are more insulin resistant first thing in the morning rather than less, so may not be the best time to eat

(Bob M) #26

My fasting insulin (fasting meaning overnight) has varied from a little over 3 to 33, a ten-fold difference. Most are around 10, but I’ve often wondered how I got the high values. (The 33 was before vacation; sent on vacation, ate a worse diet, came back, got 23 – still high though.) My current hypothesis is that it depends on when I ate, and possibly what I ate.

Why is it important? Because the general consensus appears to be that you’re insulin resistant above 10 or sometimes lower, depending on the person giving the advice; insulin sensitive below 10. So, I’ve been insulin sensitive AND insulin resistant, depending on the day I got the test? Doesn’t make sense.

I’m still trying to figure out why there’s this variability.

#27

Sounds pretty normal to me - if the dinner isn’t a proper one (little carbs, much satiating food, enough food during the day)… I very easily eat after a meal but as time passes, I lose any inclination to eat. It changes eventually (way too early :frowning: nowadays I don’t often even last for 20 hours :frowning: ) but even on EF (while I still could do it, I lost this ability as I lowered my carbs), after some time I just get disconnected from eating. Not always but it happened before, most strongly on my 5-day fast.
It seems somehow my body calms down, gets satiated hours after my meal even if I stopped while still not satiated (it happens and I shouldn’t overeat to change this)… And there is something similar when I fast longer.
If I eat not so satiating food (carbs are “good” at that especially sugars), it’s worse, stopping eating may be hard. A very little veg or fruit is still okay but more would mess with me.
Does it happen to you all the time, no matter your dinner…? Though maybe you just can’t eat the proper dinner that would keep you very satiated until next day, almost no matter what. I need a really serious meal to have this ultimate effect but it doesn’t need to be really big if I use my food items very well.

#28

I have heard that insulin is a pulsatile hormone as is cortisol although I am no expert. Therefore it is only a snapshot and if you take the reading 5 minutes before or after it will change, possibly significantly. I am glad you posted about 10 being the healthy cutoff. One of my kids gets routine bloodwork for something unrelated, they are under 25, stocky but a reasonable weight, not fat, do eat SAD. This time the doctor ordered an A1C, fasting glucose and insulin (no idea why that one). I do not have the results in front of me but the fasting was 84 (good) but the A1C was 5.9 which was concerning as soon as I saw it (doc was concerned too). We thought it might be an aberration or the kid may not have a high RBC turnover which can artificially inflate the A1C (some people take 4 months, others take 2, most 3) however their Insulin was I think 12 and had not had a chance to look that up yet. In any case will repeat in a few months and see. Their cholesterol was 209 but I explained that is normal for our family as the triglyceride to HDL ration was under 2 and both were under 100. The LDL was slightly elevated but there was no particle size testing done and LDL is a calculated number anyway I think. While there is heart disease and T2 in my family, it does not hit until after 50 or so, not overly worried but tried to explain to the kid they need to change their diet. Not sure it penetrated

(Kirk Wolak) #29

If you had to ask yourself why you are not losing… I think you already know the answer.
I am one of those people in which dairy is so inflammatory that it blocks weight loss.
Your body doesn’t want to lose weight while it is under attack…

I would spend 7 days without dairy… And see how it goes AFTER those 7 days.
(So 14 days for a good test, and measure how the last 7 days felt, and if you made
progress, or just lost some of the cravings).

Dairy contains caseomorphines which can be very addicting. And usually constipating for me.

HTH

#30

That’d be early as hell for me, I only get hungrier as the day goes on, but agree all day long but for me to get good sleep, I gotta be near empty or I’ll toss, turn and wake up multiple times.

#31

Thank you but I did try that a few years ago and did not notice a difference. I think I did it for two weeks or even four, it was a long time ago. I had seen some Youtube video about how inflammatory dairy is but I do not think it is universally true. Also, it would simply be impossible for me. Finally, I have eaten nothing for 5 days other than coffee and not lost much weight! A little but not very much for the inconvenience.

The reason it would be impossible is that I do not like to eat pork, I dislike fatty meat (I will eat lean beef or higher fat hamburger), fish, lamb, duck, I am not big on salads or vegetables. I like nuts (and yes I limit and only eat pecans, walnuts and macadamias.) However I do like different cuisines, Mexican, thai, Chinese, and do a lot with almond flour (but not excessively)

That was true for me as well and I loved starting to eat at 5PM instead of stopping well before then. The sleep has been a problem for me on this experiment. I am coming to terms with not eating past the afternoon (although I get a little sad at the end of the eating window and when I am around those eating the food looks better than usual at 7PM) and it happened to have worked out socially this week. I had a lunch party today and another tomorrow and no dinner plans (I originally thought on weekends I would change it up but did not have to). My sleep has been awful! When I fast I sometimes have trouble sleeping and that seems to be happening now even though I have eaten well over 2000 calories today.

(Kirk Wolak) #32

Saphire, I am curious if you have inflammation markers. Your comments remind me of the CIRS people (of which, I am one). Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome. When I am inflamed (from my environment. Mold/endotoxins)… I cannot lose weight. Even with fasting, and pristine dieting. [Now, I found if I can survive on 3 meals per week… I will start to lose weight, but it gets hard after many weeks]

It shouldn’t be that hard. So we are trying to get the word out. Sometimes… It’s just not the diet.
(I was not living in this house when carnivore was easy… Since being here… It’s much harder).

Lookup on YouTube: Nutrition With Judy, and CIRS… There is an episode with Jacie that is great. She has healed a lot after getting out of exposure and treating the damage done.

Even Mikhaila Peterson discovered she is genetically susceptible to mold. And that she was in a moldy place in Florida (where I live now), and that getting out of there, taking the binders, really gave her a boost.

I simply hope you find what works for you!

#33

I really appreciate the response. If I fast for 3 out of every 7 days I probably would lose weight over time but I just cannot live that way anymore and even with that I will plateau eventually and then once I hit the plateau I start creeping back up (when I was strict in 2018 I tried all sort of things to break the plateau and never could). I would not mind doing it once a month but every week, no. When I was eating at night the way I would start a fast is not eating during the day as usual and then something comes up where I am not home during dinner and by the time I get home it is 11 PM and not worth eating. Then I will stretch it out.

I have no idea about the inflammation but will look up the video this week. Are there blood tests I should be getting (although I rarely go to the doctor). I do have Hashimotos and am medicated for many years. However I know plenty of size 4 people who have Hashimotos, I am not one of them!

Most of the time since starting Keto years ago I feel pretty good. I try to avoid wheat because there is Celiac in my family and more than one or two servings over a couple of days gives me stomach upset and heartburn (figured this out in 2009, well before Keto and before my relative was dxed with Celiac. I was GF strictly for 6 months. I felt really good but other than the initial 15 lbs (which is nice but not significant for me) when I first went GF I did not lose too much and that was with eating very cleanly and avoiding white carbs, doing a mediterrain diet mostly.

As for the mold, I have an exceptional sense of smell. I have a relative that I visit periodically in a hot moldy area (I can smell it when I walk in and the house is beautiful but reeks, I have mentioned it but get nowhere with them and not going is not an option!) I have not noticed much difference in terms of weight loss when I visit (I am usually there to help for about 4-5 days every few months).

My house is prewar and has plaster walls so not that worried about mold although it is possible. Is there something else that is a problem in old houses? I have not been in the relative’s house since March

(Robin) #34

I believe inflammation can be greatly decreased by keto… but sometimes there are factors outside diet that come into play.
However, I am a huge proponent of an early eating window. My body and my sleep are sooo grateful.

(Peter - Don't Fear the Fat ) #35

Me too Robin, Sleep has been transformed.

I had psoriasis from elbow to wrist. For years I had very noticeable flaking, sore and bleeding skin on both arms.
In 2 months of Keto it had massively reduced and now after 5 months it appears to have gone!

psoriasis & inflammation

#36

Here is my update after a week. I have lost another 2 lbs, so 6 total. Which is still within my range. If I go below that then maybe it means something. I do not feel any thinner and actually feel somewhat bloated from the Chinese food. I have eaten out a lot of meals this week, especially Chinese and gone to a bunch of lunch events (normally have dinner events so this is a change). I eat mostly from 11 - 5 but I rarely go to be before midnight or later. So my 5 is like someone else’s 2 or 3 (but I know there are sleep experts who say it does not matter, Circadian is Circadian)

I am still not sleeping well but I am getting used to not eating after 5. I am a little hungrier early in the day but am struggling to get everything in. Also, with the eating window I sometimes feel like I am racing to get enough calories and as a result am eating more than I want or even more than I would have eaten later in the day

#38

My almost two week update

I lost 3lbs (technically 9 but 6 of those are in my normal range). This is on the right track but since I probably have at least 60 to go, hardly a cause for shouting from the rooftops.

I periodically check my morning fasting G and it was lower than usual although still well within the normal range.

I also find not eating at night more tolerable but the weird part is that all the wonderful foods I think about eating at night are not worth the effort to make at 1PM and I end up eating some mediocre meal. I am definitely eating fewer calories but it is not on purpose and I try to keep my calories up with nuts, cheese and peanut butter. I still feel like when you do if you are rushing to get out of the house or right before someone fast for religious reasons and is trying to shove it in.

I have not been tested either, there were no really good dinners that I had to pass up or anything like that in the last two weeks. Twice friends invited me to join them but I declined as the meals did not seem that exciting. We are going to some weddings next month and I definitely plan to eat. Plus DH is annoying me as when I decline to eat with friends, eg go over to the neighbors and order in, he declines as well and then is hungry later. I encourage him to partake but he does not which would not be the case in reverse

#39

Here is my update after more than two months. I have lost about 12 lbs. It has been very slow but I am not as dedicated to Keto and fasting as I usually am. Mostly I feel like I am maintaining rather than losing and considering I have about 60 lbs to lose, this feels like it will take forever.

Since this will probably be forever, I have changed the eating window to 12-5 which since I am up past midnight is pretty early. I will break it for special and not that special occasions. We had a fun dinner out planned last Saturday and I did not want to miss it. Another one during the week for a birthday. Some weeks I have nothing, other weeks 2-3 events that I eat at.

I have eaten more carbs than usual but I only eat them before 5!

I have fasted but I have found that it is more difficult to fast for a few days unless I have a big dinner the evening before, then it is pretty easy. My body and I have accepted that we will not be eating at night (except for the special dinners I mentioned) so that is less of a problem in general.

One final problem, food does not taste as good midday for me. Perhaps it was the chili but I reheated last night’s chili for my main meal and was disappointed in the taste, not sure why. In general finding things I want to eat at 2pm is not easy even if they were really appealing previously

#40

I don’t know how common this is but I am totally like that. Except I can’t last for days and the dinner should be early. If I eat very late, I tend to get hungry early, my body has a weird logic.
But a quite big early dinner is quite necessary if I want a chance at a longer as usual (still short) fast. I had one before my extended fasts and on OMAD too.

I can relate. I tend to enjoy my food best after 6pm. I virtually never should eat after 6pm, I become an unsatiable uncontrolled gremlin there… Sigh.
I don’t know why these things can’t just synchronize. My SO works well regarding that: if he is hungry and needs food, he has appetite and enjoys his food. It’s 4 very very loosely correlated things in my life. Yeah, even my need for food and hunger aren’t synchronized but that’s not a problem. But I am a hedonist and I want to enjoy my food when I need therefore eat it! Not when I overeat at midnight because my appetite goes super high and my satiation leaves me for some reason.

But we don’t always enjoy our food as usual for that kind of food anyway. I have days when my food joy is super low, no matter what I eat. It’s normal and tolerable as long as I get back my good days. But it can be disappointing indeed.

Good luck! :slight_smile: And losing fat when it’s your goal is good, slow or not. Only too quick is problematic.

(Robin) #41

I know it feels slow. But at 12 pounds in 3 months, that would be a 48 pound loss in a year. I believe that slow and steady wins the race.