Dr Paul Saladino - Metabolic health, Organ meat, Evolutionary Programming

#1

This morning I enjoyed listening to this talk by Dr. Paul Saladino regarding metabolic health, organ meat eating, bio-availability and evolutionary programming. I must say I find it fascinating, and I do believe he has some wisdom to share. As with everything in this world, bias is ever present, but it’s worth having a listen to. I don’t believe bias excludes Dr. Ken Berry, Dr. Paul Mason, Dr. Jason Fung, Dr. Phinney and other doctors/experts/researchers out there. But I do believe they all, even if they’re not always 100% right, have some wisdom to share, and coming across new ideas, new ways of looking at nutrition, is always exciting, and also necessary on the science path to new discoveries.

Since the video is quite long, I will just try to give a short summary of the talk: So, Dr. Paul Saladino touches on quite a few subjects. He talks about the effects of plants such as vegetables on the thyroid, which is interesting. He also talks about evolutionary programming and there being a reason why most of us as kids didn’t want to eat up our vegetables. Whether that is true, or applies to us all I don’t know, some might really enjoy their vegetables. He also talks about the bio-availability of fruit, and how eating them doesn’t appear (from studies) to cause insulin resistance. Instead he argues that what drives insulin resistance are the seed oils, the processed foods, and the sugar. One thing, he mentions, is that if you want to check if you are insulin sensitive or insulin resistant, you must get a fasting insulin test, which should give you the answer, according to him a fasting glucose test is not sufficient. Lots of food for thought. This post is not designed for anything other than share ideas, and information. As we people have to try and think for ourselves, I know this is very hard, because we as humans show a propensity for becoming biased.

(Bob M) #2

Did he say what your fasting insulin should be? I remember him saying something ridiculously low, like 4. Pretty much everyone is insulin resistant under that.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #3

This is solid. The one thing I question is the seed oils business, because the advocates of that hypothesis don’t generally have great data to support it. That doesn’t mean they are wrong, however, just that I’m not entirely convinced. There is a YouTube video by Chris Knobbe at one of the LCDU events, in which he goes into detail about this, and his thoughts make a lot of sense. Links to it have been posted a few times on these forums. There is also a video by Tucker Goodrich, which is more intense and less data-driven.

The only problem I have, really, is that cottonseed oil entered the American food supply only a few decades earlier than cheap refined sugar and white flour, so it is difficult to disentangle their effects. Moreover, while there is a clear mechanistic explanation for how sugar and other carbohydrates can cause insulin resistance, I haven’t yet seen a clear mechanism for how seed oils cause insulin resistance.

On the other hand, there are so many other problems with the seed oils and the heavy processing they require, that it is clearly beneficial to stay away from them, regardless.

(Bob M) #4

My understanding of the theory is that PUFAs cause your fat cells to be insulin sensitive, meaning they are basically sending a signal saying they’re hungry. Saturated fat has the opposite effect, making fat cells be insulin resistant and sending an “I’m full” signal.

If your fat cells have a lot of PUFAs, this then would cause or exacerbate obesity, as it would drive hunger.

Many problems with this, not the least of which is that you can’t tell how much PUFA your fat cells have without some type of biopsy. And it doesn’t seem to work in real humans, like me. I gained weight eating a diet very high in saturated fat (from ghee, stearic acid, cacao butter). And since implementing a “low mass” diet with eating a lot of pork fat, I’ve experienced a lack of hunger. Now, the pork is a special breed and bred on a farm that doesn’t feed corn, but even then, it should be higher in PUFA than, say, beef fat.

I’m convinced that the theory looks great on paper and potentially in mice, but is worthless in humans.

#5

Hi Bob, yes he said it should at be 5, but he would prefer it to be lower, like 3 or even better 2. I’m writing this from memory as it was a long talk and he touched on many subjects, it was all certainly very interesting. He has studied physics and biology and so his talk can be a bit complicated, and he talks way too fast, but he certainly seems to know his stuff.

#6

Hi Paul, again I am writing from memory, as it was a long talk which I listened to this morning, certainly felt it was worth my time to do that as he touches on several interesting topics, but with regards to the seed oils he was saying the problem is the linoleic acid that builds up in the body from them to toxic amounts, and this I believe (from memory) was one of the drivers to insulin resistance he talked about. I only eat butter and cook with butter, and only eat 1-ingredient foods - animal meat, pasture eggs, grassfed butter, raw grassfed milk, a tiny bit of raw honey - so I’m not concerned for myself regarding the seed oils. But for someone who does keto who likes to eat salads and may be unaware that their dressings (if they use them) could contain seed oils. He also spoke about olive oil and avocado oil having about 15% linoleic acid. There were a great deal of other topics he spoke about in detail as well, I thought it was well worth a listen.

#7

Hi Bob, Dr. Paul Saladino also mentioned that the seed oils are very high in linoleic acid (up to 50% I think it was, olive and avocado oil about 15%) versus butter, tallow and such fats being very low, like 2%, and that the problem is when linoleic acids build up to toxic amounts in the body.

(Bob M) #8

Paul, this is a big problem. Pretty much everything has a high PUFA content these days, even things you think don’t (like olives stored in sunflower oil). There’s no way to disentangle high carb from high PUFA, since often they are one in the same.

#9

Very interesting talk for sure, but I don’t agree with everything. Dr. Paul Saladino thinks chicken are pork are inferior meats because they’re fed grains and soy, that be as it may, I love both pork and chicken, and they are staples in my animal based WOE. And he tends to think all meats must be grassfed and grass finished, which of course he can afford, but most of us can’t. Then he touched on pepper being unhealthy, I actually don’t like pepper, it tends to make me nauseated, but my Aberdeen Angus burgers have it added, as well as salt, I could’ve done without the pepper as I don’t like it, but I don’t think it should be a problem. I only eat my Aberdeen Angus burgers once a week, but why oh why, can’t they have a version where only salt has been added, it would surely taste a lot better. Oh well, I’ve got 2 packets of ground beef for the rest of the week. I can make my own patties.

What was really fascinating to me, as a woman, and being of a certain age, I’m the same age as the lady in the video, 39, but will turn 40 this September, was the talk about how vegetables or rather certain compounds in the vegetables cause problems with thyroid, causing goiters. I don’t have a goiter, but my energy levels are still lower than I would like, and it did make me wonder.

I can well believe there are valuable micronutrients in organ meats, and I do get if I don’t want to eat them raw cooking them will reduce some nutrients, but I’m not quite ready to embrace the cavewoman in me yet, eating organs raw. I will look for some grassfed and grassfinished organ meats from my local butcher, but that is all I can afford to buy. I certainly can’t afford to buy all the meats grassfed and free range.

(Bob M) #10

Paladino is off the deep end for some of this. Did he say you had to eat eggs raw, but only the yolk and not the white?

The pork and chicken aspect are because these animals are what they eat. So, if they eat corn and seed oils, their fat will have PUFAs in them. Unlike ruminants (cows, mainly), which have a rumen to convert PUFA to saturated fat or MUFA. PUFA content in beef is low even in corn-fed beef (and cows only eat very small amounts of “corn”, even when corn-fed; they eat the stalks, etc., instead).

And I don’t know why he ignores that most long-term carnivores don’t eat organ meats or only eat them rarely, yet are perfectly fine.

Energy levels and thyroid are tough. Thyroid, in particular, requires a large amount of tests, and someone who knows what he/she is looking at.

#11

Hi Bob, I don’t agree with what he says about eating eggs raw, or organ meats raw, and I certainly wouldn’t do it. Nor would I eat it in pill form. I’m a firm believer in getting everything I require from the food. But I am going to get some grassfed and grass finished organs such as beef liver or organic free range chicken liver, and well, try it. No idea what to expect. My SO thinks I won’t like it, but we’ll see.

Regarding cows being low in PUFAs, I did not know that. So thanks for the information. I don’t tend to feel anywhere near as good when I eat chicken or pork as when I eat beef, and I had of late begun to have an aversion to the fat on pork, but I still love beef, and really currently like the combination beef and eggs. And sheep meat is delicious. Truly decadent. Perhaps this is why then. Even bacon had begun to taste off to me, I thought that was because of the nitrites and nitrates. But my tastes and preferences have changed. So these are the foods I now eat, and I would love to eat goat meat, but it’s difficult to come by, and drink raw sheep and goat milk.

The only thing I consume which I don’t believe has any benefits is coffee. As to the caffeine boost it doesn’t seem to work that way for me. It is literally just that I love the taste of it, a pleasant warm drink with my raw milk in, to enjoy morning and afternoon.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #12

I have also read that a number of doctors who treat patients with a ketogenic diet are starting to believe that the body uses thyroid hormones more efficiently on keto. This because their patients tend to have lower thyroid levels but are still fine. I guess this could easily complicate an already complicated situation. (And interestingly, patients on a high-carb diet often have “normal” thyroid numbers but still have hypothyroid symptoms.)

(Bob M) #13

@never2late I also have a harder time with pork and chicken. I’ve actually tossed some fatty pork that we had where the fat tasted – bad. On the other hand, I got 1/2 a pig from a local farmer, which uses a particular cross-breed, and feeds the pigs very well. That fat is great, and my wife loves it. It’s just really expensive.

If I buy store-bought pork, I try to buy lean meats without much fat.

I also get some chickens from a different local farm, and they taste so much better than store-bought. Smaller, though. Sometimes, a lot smaller. And, of course, more expensive.

I wouldn’t mind trying goat meat, but I’ve never seen it in a store, even our fancy store that has rabbit, duck, goose, etc. I have had it in St. Croix, but in soup.

Ah, I think a morning routine with coffee you love is a benefit. :grinning:

@PaulL I think Amber O’Hearn says the reverse T3 will be lower on keto/carnivore, and when I had a fancy test taken for thyroid, that was the one item marked as low.

But all of this is pedantic, because when I go see a general practitioner, they’re clueless. TSH is all you get for thyroid, for instance, and I had to beg for insulin and HbA1c. I’d LOVE to have a keto doctor, but all the ones I could find have left for other jobs.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #14

To me, it tastes sweeter than beef or pork. And to find any in our area, you’d have to go into Bridgeport and find a Jamaican or a halal butcher.

(Doug) #15

When I worked in Jamaica, we had curried goat. I think it’s really good. However, the custom there is to chop up the meat fairly fine, small bones and all. Along with my co-workers, I felt that, "Hey, when I want to eat, I want to eat, not be picking or spitting out little bones.

#16

I don’t even remember the goat, once the beef farm had it… It’s even harder to get than mutton and that is tricky enough… But it wasn’t nothing special. I remember the Racka sheep, that was AMAZING, better than the beef from the same hard and there was no problem with the beef (okay, I bought cheaper cuts…) but the mutton was something else!
Rabbit is easy as our “egg lady” raises them. We ate one lately and still have one in the freezer. It’s not expensive at all. Ruminants are expensive, rabbit is at pork chuck level.

I start to forget about beef, the last time I ate some was several months ago. Now I eat deer instead (occasionally), lovely, tender, cheaper. I prefer mutton over beef but the availability is a problem.

Fortunately I very strongly prefer pork over beef, I like my occasional rabbit, chicken and turkey and now we eat good farm pork occasionally…

(Eve) #17

So what are the safest oils to eat?

(Alec) #18

My opinion is that seed oils (sometimes called vegetable oils) are terrible for you and must be avoided. Olive oil and coconut oil are less bad, and can be eaten without too many issues, but in my opinion are still not great for you. It’s probably best to avoid oil if you can, and use butter or ghee instead.

#19

Hi Eve, Dr. Paul Saladino wouldn’t think any of them good to use, and I myself only use butter, but the safest I believe were olive and avocado oil, as they were lowest in the linoleic acid which he believes is very toxic when it builds to certain amounts in the body. To my memory, the olive oil and avocado oil have about 15% linoleic acid, and butter or lard or tallow, any of the saturated fats really, have about 2%. But I have to listen to the talk again, to remember it all properly. Dr. Paul Saladino touched on quite a few subjects. All very interesting.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #20

As @Alecmcq mentioned, the fruit oils—avocado, coconut, olive, and palm—are minimally processed and contain much less of the polyunsaturated fatty acids, some of which were unknown to the human body 200 years ago.

Animal fats—butter/ghee, bacon grease, lard, and tallow—are mostly saturated and mono-unsaturated fatty acids, which (believe it or not) are actually more healthful than the polyunsaturates, despite what we’ve been told for the past 50-60 years. It could hardly be otherwise, since the human race has been eating them for hundreds of thousands of years (at least) before the invention of agriculture.

Here are some comparative figures:

Fat source % Saturated fat % Monounsaturated fat % Polyunsaturated fat % Other
Butter 54 30 4 12
Canola oil 10 52 31 1
Coconut oil 77 6 2 15
Cottonseed oil 27 19 54 0
Lard 41 47 12 0
Olive oil 14 77 9 0
Palm oil 51 44 4 1
Safflower oil 9 12 78 1
Soybean oil 15 24 61 0
Sunflower oil 11 20 69 0
Tallow 51 44 4 1

If you want to know the reason that the American Heart Association touts seed oils, it’s because they received a very large donation from Crisco Oil in 1948, and they have been loyal ever since. Before 1948, they were a small, insignificant organisation. Crisco put them on the map.