Dr. Esselstyn?

(Todd Allen) #43

A common refrain among the vegans is “a whole foods plant based diet is best for health” but then their answers to the various deficiencies are things like nutritional yeast - non-plant processed foods/supplements. And cultured foods are all non-plant based whether the cultures are fungal, bacterial or a combination.

Veganism in the animal world is rarer than most realize. There are plenty of youtube videos showing herbivores such as cows and deer eating a variety of small animals. I grew up with horses and was shocked the first time I saw horses eat live animals - I tossed them a bale of hay which turned out to have mice nesting in it and the horses enthusiastically pulled apart the bale to eat the baby mice but later became used to seeing them eat things like dying cicadas, fledgling birds, etc.

(Brian) #44

That’s quite interesting! I’ve never explored that.

(Jay AM) #45

I’ve seen various things on herbivores eating small creatures as well. Like the famous deer who eat/ate bird heads. It makes me wonder if there are no true herbivores and that, instead, animals we would consider herbivores just have lower protein requirements. In the natural world, small bugs are found in many places for instance. Cows aren’t sitting around washing their grasses before they eat.

(Joe) #46

I was happily vegan for over two years ago so this thread struck a chord for me.

I lost close to 50 pounds eating mostly non processed and plant based. I supplemented b12 and pea protein.but It turned out it wasn’t the plants that helped me lose the weight it was the caloric deficit. And we all know how that turns out.

As soon as I started eating more processed carbs I quickly or the weight back on. I became vegan having read the China study and thenI became keto by looking deeper at the science and was convinced it made more sense and had stronger evidence. Far too many variables to draw a conclusion based on the China study.

BUT…

I was proud to be a vegan. It made me feel good not to eat other animals and to be honest it was a very difficult and emotional decision to begin to eat animals again. But I made the decision for my health and happiness. I did feel I was doing good for the earth and my soul Whether the was science for that it not it was my frame of mind. I continue to hate the manner in which factory farming treats animals and would honestly not eat animals of I had a better option. But I also never held it against anyone else or tried to convert people to veganism.

With the moral aspect of this debate lends a challenge which opposing opinions commonly face And that is they are arguing in different arenas using either science or morality. A moral vegan doesn’t care about science though some pretend to and bio hacker keto head may have no moral preference on what they eat.

But there ARE parallels between the eating styles of health oriented veganism and keto once you look past the animals. For instance both believe in eating whole unprocessed foods and see the political side of our food policy as a huge danger for our obesity and DM2 epidemic as a whole. We both value food a nutrition and not a stimulant or drug. And in the end we all want to be healthy.

It would be wonderful if the ideologies could advocate together for dietary policy issues on which we agree.

I will tell you not all vegans are self righteous lecturers. Those are just the ones you hear. In all my time as vegan I made an effort to live and let live. If someone questioned my reasoning I explained it. Hell I even grilled burgers for my wife every Friday and fried bacon for my kids which some people would say made me not a vegan at all.

My point is food and diet have become very political. People have entrenched themselves in camps much like the real politics of today. I view my keto diet as a tool to live as long as possible and be as healthy as possible. I feel it’s best for me and just like all the socials issues of our time it is a personal decision. I believe to live and let live and you will rarely convince the opposite fringe they are wrong. Some will rather hate you for your views than admit their own had weaknesses.

Its good to remember keto/IFisn’t perfect either. I still have GI issues every week (I do miss my vegan GI tract), my blood pressure and heart rate have gone up since keto and it is quite socially limiting at times when the sugar and carbs come out. (it’s harder to be keto socially than vegan in my experience). I still believe a vegan diet can be a healthy diet when done well but it is a metabolic challenge and it easy to slip from raw vegan to processed food junkie. (carrots to beans to quinoa to rice to burritos to chips to oreos was essentially my path)

I myself will always consider the source and remember that people are allowed to be wrong if they want and its not my job to make them right.

I am just as proud to be LCHF as I was a vegan. Just for different reasons.

Carnivore vs omnivore
(Rob) #47

Excellent post and I wholeheartedly agree. I’ve said this from the beginning of my keto journey that vegans and ketonauts should be allies against the common enemies of processed foods, big Pharma, etc.

While it is clear in these forums that there is a bit of an anti-vegan backlash (just post something negative about bacon :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:) I would put more of the blame on the vegans (as a group) for the very reason you stated above… it is an asymmetrical argument with no room for compromise on the moral component. Add in the psychological damage that vegans thought they’d won not only the moral but also the scientific high ground (thanks ADA and 7th day Adventist loonies) only see it swept away which has made them even more desperate, illogical and combative against the new science front runners that it seems impossible for both sides to play nice any more (ever?).

It would be nice if vegans could say “we don’t agree with animal products but if you are going to consume them, be paleo/keto and eat whole foods and humanely reared products”. Paleo/Keto folks would also be a lot more chill if they weren’t facing reactionary pseudo-science crap like What the Health, Forks not Knives, etc. and constant attempts to scare them off their well chosen path.

All the while the global food and Pharma conglomerates enjoy playing all sides against each other while they profit off everyone’s dysfunction.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #48

The loud vegan minority gives the more broad vegetarian community a bad name, and makes a lot of omnivores reflexively defensive. I would be happy to partner with anyone to get rid of HFCS and sugar, push for better farm policy for diversity and quality of produce and push for more pasture raised animals… But when you bring up that last one, you seem to lose a lot of vegans.

(bulkbiker) #49

I know its only words and that but aren’t we falling into the trap of thinking that “vegans” are following a way of eating whereas in fact it is a political movement who eat whole food plant only.
Veganism is far more than a dietary choice so a vegan will never ever be able to support a way of life that involves any exploitation of animals whether that is drinking milk , eating butter or a nice juicy steak. I’m not nor ever have been one but aren’t we expecting logic where in fact there is very little. We know that WFPB diets aren’t especially nutritious without lots of supplements but people still do it because they have taken a political stance.
I think we might be expecting common ground where in fact there can never be any.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #50

Some are, some aren’t. Broad brush there.

(Brian) #51

I’m a loonie, I’ll admit it. But I’m not a vegan, I’m not a vegetarian, and I don’t buy into stuff lock-step. Hey, I’ve been there when people place being a vegan or vegetarian on a level of spiritual arrival. I don’t think it’s Biblical and I’m not gonna preach it. And while some will belittle me and those like me for a faith they do not share, I hope people realize that we, even in the same denomination, are not all the same, in numerous ways.

No offense taken, sincerely, and I get pretty frustrated with some of my own, too. But a few are actually thinking a little bit about some of the low-carb stuff and seeing a few of us doing well with it. Keto and low-carb don’t actually have to be nearly as much at odds as they’re often put, even among loonies. :wink:

(bulkbiker) #52

I thought that was the whole points with “vegans” per se. No leather, no eggs, no dairy, no animal anything otherwise they aren’t “vegans”. On other forums I have been told off for saying something is a “vegan diet” or “vegan way of eating” because the whole “vegan” thing is much more than that. Who knows… and to be honest I don’t care but just thought it was a point worth making.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #53

Let’s suggest there is a loud set of folks who are vegan in all things, from leather to eggs to fish who define vegan as militantly strict to that. And there’s a broader set of people who do the same thing but don’t demand society go with them. And there’s a much broader vegetarian community who may be ovo-pesca-lacto-vegetarians or may be basically vegan.

It’s a term with a lot of folks with different agendas. And the militant folks get the most press and the most pixels, just as the most militant and loud everything gets the most attention. I think there are folks in that community who would be good allies in reforming the food systems in the US. I think there are folks in there that will be inflexible in their beliefs to the point where they couldn’t work with us. I’m happy to work with the folks who want to work with me.

(Adam Kirby) #54

Veganism was always a political movement. It’s only fairly recently that these weird gaunt vegan doctors have tried convincing people it’s an optional diet for human health. That was never the goal of it at all.

(Crow T. Robot) #55

You might not have been vegan long enough to begin to suffer problems. Not saying you necessarily would, but I just finished reading, “The Meat Fix”, wherein the long-time vegan author describes major GI issues that plagued him for years clearing up within days upon reintroducing meat to his diet. He also didn’t see problems for the first several years.

Just an interesting N=1. I recommend the book, it’s quite entertaining.

Good post.

#56

I must have missed it, what is wrong about the 7th Day Adventist. I thought they were in a blue zone and lived longer than anyone. Is that wrong?

(Joe) #57

Possibly. But four two and a half years I was as regular and effortless as the sunrise. I could still be adjusting to keto but I routinely get the diarrheas. Sorry for the TMI.

(Joe) #58

Blockquote I know its only words and that but aren’t we falling into the trap of thinking that “vegans” are following a way of eating whereas in fact it is a political movement who eat whole food plant only.

It was always more health related for me. With some feel good benefits. All be told plenty of vegans would not have considered me such but I don’t really care I spent a long time abstaining from animals. Politics were never my motivation

(bulkbiker) #59

So you were never a “Vegan” that’s my whole point… being a “vegan” is not simply abstaining from eating animal products at least in my understanding which is why they would never consider joining forces with someone who eats meat.

(Brian) #60

There are a lot of flavors among SDA’s. There are a group of them that have practically become “McDougall heads”. There are a group of them that insist that being a vegan is the only way to Heaven despite the Scriptures not saying that. There are those who take on some really strange ideas. And I’d like to think that some are quite well balanced in their approach to living life. People probably don’t hear much about them…

I’m not as knowledgeable about the “blue zone” thing as I could be. SDA’s do like to crow about living longer and healthier. And they do live longer and healthier when compared to the average person. They like to pin that on their vegan or vegetarian diet. I am not convinced that it’s being vegan or vegetarian that gives them the longevity. I personally believe it’s the other factors, the efforts towards clean and healthful lifestyles, that make the difference. Other groups, such as the Mormons, I believe, have similar longer life expectencies but don’t try to push the vegan or vegetarian part of a lifestyle. But they also advocate for clean and healthful lifestyles.

Just my take. Don’t want to be disrespectful. And others might have differing opinions. :slight_smile:

#61

That is an interesting question. Why is it that they always talk about the Adventists and never the Mormons? Curious, am not a member simply want to know the best way to be healthy

(Rob) #62

Because the Adventists set up and still significantly control the agenda of the ADA (through things like Loma Linda University) while the Mormons have other fish to fry :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I know lots of Mormons but no SDA’s so on that side of the equation it’s easy for me to see past the somewhat out there additional scripture and see the good people of all sorts that are members of the organization while @Bellyman shows us the same for the SDAs. I apologize for flippant use of the ‘L’ word.