Dr Don Layman and protein and more


(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #1

I relistened to this and because I knew more than before, I learned more.

My takeaways

  • 2.5 to 3g of Lucine needs to be consumed to stimulate muscle synthesis (bulk and strength)
  • Whey protein can be a good source
  • extra Lucine does not have any benefits
  • this is the amt that needs to be in a post-exercise meal to raise the plasma levels to what is needed
  • eat within 2 hours of exercise to maximize synthesis but most people do not need to optimize muscle synthesis
  • Dr Layman is thinking 0.8g of protein/body kg is too low
  • protein only stimulates phase I insulin increases (existing insulin) versus carbs which are a phase I and II (generate more) insulin nutritent

(Karen) #2

ok read up on first phase insulin.
Never sure how much Protein to eat


(Jack Bennett) #3

Good stuff. I have been thinking a lot about protein lately. There seems to be a wide variation in recommended intakes, from 0.5 g/kg to 6 g/kg. The latter is kind of extreme, for bodybuilding and strength training, while the former is more of a Ron Rosedale / Jason Fung recommended range.

Lately I’ve been getting about 2 g/kg and it seems comfortable and sustainable, but I’m not sure if it’s optimal. When I go well above that I feel signs of “overload” - nausea, ammonia taste, etc. I have no idea how someone would go into those bodybuilder ranges, but maybe it only works if you’re working out 2+ hours every day.


#4

I think I agree that 0.8g/kg is too low as well. For me, at least. Somewhere between 1-1.5g/kg if you are not an athlete or do intense workouts, sounds good to me. Some people do very well on more though.


#5

Unfortunately I’m not in a place where I can listen to the podcast right now, but this is a topic that interests me and one I need to learn more about because protein seems to do funny things with my blood sugar. I’m a reactive hypoglycemic (probably won’t be once I’m fat-adapted) but all my doctors and nutritionists tell me that I need to eat PROTEIN to keep my levels at an even keel. Yet when I grab a handful of almonds or a chunk of chicken breast, I feel the spike and the crash and it leaves me feeling awful. They all seem to think protein is the answer, but I think I need to grab some fat when I get hungry to keep my glucose levels at a place where they won’t peak and dive so drastically. So much to learn!
Sue


(Bunny) #6

On bullet two is that whey protein hydrolysate or isolate?

[1] Isolate: 90% protein, or higher; contains less lactose and fat and lacks a lot of the beneficial nutrients found in whey protein concentrate. …More

[2] Hydrolysate: Also known as hydrolyzed whey, this type has been pre-digested so that it gets absorbed faster. It causes a 28–43% greater spike in insulin levels than isolate (11Trusted Source). …More

[3] 6 Dairy Foods That Are Naturally Low in Lactose

More References:

[1] New supplement can repair, rejuvenate muscles in older adults

[2] Dietary protein recommendations and the prevention of sarcopenia

[3] Prospective Views for Whey Protein and/or Resistance Training Against Age-related Sarcopenia

[4] “…Protein-enriched, milk-based supplement to counteract sarcopenia in acutely ill geriatric patients offered resistance exercise training during and after hospitalisation: study protocol for a randomised, double-blind, multicentre trial …More

[5] Whey proteins and age related muscle loss – Sarcopenia


(Bob M) #7

Try it with something else. What you state there have high levels of PUFAs, which can also affect things. Try lean beef, for instance.

Have you measured any spike or subsequent crash? If you’re getting a crash, that means your glucagon response is not correct.


#8

I used to track my BG numbers obsessively trying to capture the spike and crash but even though I know my body was pumping out insulin in appropriately, my test numbers were always in the normal range.

I will experiment with a different source of protein and see what happens. Thank you!
Sue


#9

You left out concentrate. Which is the most used form of supplemented Whey and (arguably) the better one since you’re still getting the dairy fats out of it. Assuming you go with a grass fed option it’s a lot more “real food” than the others… at least as much of a real food as something that’s powderized in a plastic tub can be.


#10

I use raw/dehydrated/concentrated grassfed whey protein, usually with Ginger or chillis of some kind to help further with digestion. Fab leucine etc.


#11

Dr. Layman also advises eating a minimum of 30g protein per meal for synthesis that builds muscle - which I aspire to do (not counting my a.m. fatty coffee w/ warmed raw milk in it, so it’s an OMAD or TMAD thing for me). He advocates not aiming for a protein macro, but to keep that per-meal minimum going instead.

Thing is, Dr. Layman’s study on the above was funded by the industrial beef and dairy councils. Of course, funding is necessary in order to do research, and he’s published some 90 papers, so who knows if that’s any concern. He’s long advocated for a reduction or elimination of cereal grains.

He’s now CSO at a nutritional supplement company selling a nitric oxide activator, Qivana, which has lots of anti-oxidants from pine bark and pomegranate etc - could be helpful for those who aren’t getting enough of such in their low carb eating.

(Interestingly, I just learned that nitric oxide also regulates insulin, with low nitric oxide, insulin cannot work properly. And NO is produced by special bacteria in the mouth that convert nitrates! So, moderate use of mouthwash is advised (only once a day rather than twice). Christiane Northrup MD has also educated on how NO helps midlife females with hormonal balancing. I will keep eating my plates with 2/3 veg + weekly fruit for the antioxidants (such as low carb candied or pickled citrus peel, pomegranate seeds on things, and the occasional apple too) - and will now only be using mouthwash once a day… a lot cheaper than buying Quivana) :sparkles:


(Kristen Ann) #12

Sunlight also converts nitrates in your skin to NO :slight_smile:


(Jenna Ericson) #14

I didn’t listen to the whole podcast, but it reminded me of something I heard (from Thomas DeLauer I think) which is that leucine is an amino acid that the body cannot turn into glucose. Apparently there are glucogenic amino acids and ketogenic amino acids (along with amino acids that are both glucogenic and ketogenic). Here’s the wikipedia entry for glycogenic amino acid. It looks like the only two amino acids that can’t be turned into glucose are leucine and lysine.

I was thinking about this in the context of people taking BCAAs or whey protein to enhance muscle growth. BTW, Branch Chain Amino Acids are leucine, isoleucine and valine. I’m wondering if part of why BCAAs or whey protein help build muscle after a workout is that they can’t be turned into glucose and so would be more likely to automatically be used for muscle repair.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #15

The minimum average protein needed is 0.6 g/kg lean body mass/day. This is to compensate for the irreducible nitrogen loss that must be replaced. Note, however, that this is the mean average, and the study that determined it showed a fair amount of individual variation in nitrogen loss. Some people can get away with less protein, others require more. The point, however, is that inadequate protein intake causes severe problems and eventually starvation. The minimum daily recommended protein intake is 0.8 g/kg LBM/day in order to provide some cushion over the average minimum.

The maximum recommendation I’ve seen is 2.0 g/kg LBM/day, even for body builders. Since the body has no way of storing more than a minimal amount of amino acids in the labile pool, the excess must be deaminated, and the resulting nitrogen waste is turned into nitric acid, which is excreted in the form of urea. If the nitric acid cycle gets overwhelmed, there is a serious risk of toxicity and even death from ammonia. If you smell ammonia on your breath, or your friends tell you that your body odour reeks of ammonia, you are eating too much protein and must cut back immediately. The figure of 6.0 g is twice what I’ve seen as the maximum intake the body can tolerate without overwhelming the nitric acid cycle. I suppose it is possible that there is an outlier who can safely tolerate that much protein, but it’s far too much for the rest of us.

Muscle building requires three of the essential amino acids, leucine, iso-leucine, and valine, all of which belong to the class of so-called branched-chain amino acids (BCAA’s). Although these three are considered essential amino acids because the body cannot manufacture them from other amino acids, people who are not body builders need only a very small amount and no more, since in quantity they cause inflammation. Body builders, of course, not only tolerate but need these BCAA’s in greater quantity.

All proteins in the diet are broken down into their constituent amino acids in the digestive tract (just as all carbohydrates are broken down into their constituent glucose molecules). These amino acids are then either re-formed into the proteins that the body needs at the time, to build or repair tissue; or else deaminated in order to produce the minimal amount of glucose needed (in the case of gluconeogenesis) or nitric oxide for regulating blood pressure (too much carbohydrate produces too much insulin, which interferes with the production of nitric oxide, which is why high blood pressure is part of the metabolic syndrome).

Whether any amino acids get used for gluconeogenesis depends on the amount of carbohydrate in the diet. Above a certain threshold, glucose from carbohydrate intake stimulates the production of insulin, which inhibits gluconeogenesis by raising the insulin/glucagon ratio, and excess protein intake also increases serum insulin significantly. When carbohydrate intake is below the threshold, excess protein intake has no effect on the insulin/glucagon ratio (because glucagon secretion rises proportionately along with insulin) and therefore gluconeogenesis is not inhibited. It used to be believed that the amount of gluconeogenesis depended solely on the amount of available amino acids, but the more nuanced view is that that the glucose produced more closely matches the need for it (for instance, the red blood cells cannot metabolise fatty acids or ketone bodies and therefore require glucose in order to live; on the other hand, just how much glucose the brain actually requires is currently in dispute).


(Jack Bennett) #16

This is a more serious and heavyweight recommendation than what I’ve seen from google searches. Most health media seem to gently suggest dialing back on the protein if you reach that point, although few or none of them really mention the ammonia taste. Which is kind of an alarming symptom and you’d think there would be more out there about it. I seem to get there above 3g/kg LBM depending on activity level (60-65kg and 200g/d of protein).

Anecdotally, it seems to be self-limiting, in that reaching that point of tasting ammonia leads to a mild nausea and appetite suppression.

The 6g/kg figure came from LeanGains, which recommends up to 60% of dietary calories from protein. Not sure if that’s somewhat calorie restricted though - at least relative to energy demands of young men (mostly) working out hard. (60% of 2500 is 1500 which would be 375g/d protein - extremely high.) I’m sure a lot of bodybuilders get up to similar ranges though.

In hearing Dr Ted Naiman speaking on recent podcasts, the impression I got was that it was effectively impossible to overeat protein - perhaps because of that self-limiting effect described above? (Although he didn’t mention that.) And perhaps there’s an N=1 factor there too: if you work out as hard as Dr Naiman, then maybe exceeding your protein needs is a lot harder.


(Bunny) #17

I think you might be able to over-eat protein just by itself but I doubt it, personally I can barely eat a small section of a nice big porterhouse steak (almost raw) with nothing else but the meat with-out feeling like an over-stuffed bowling ball when I’m done, so I eat less of it and never eat until I’m full which is normal for me and then you have the geriatric population who may need more well-done cooked meats then rare meats.

References:

[1] “…In general, food takes 24 to 72 hours to move through your digestive tract. … Your digestion rate is also based on what you’ve eaten. Meat and fish can take as long as 2 days to fully digest. The proteins and fats they contain are complex molecules that take longer for your body to pull apart. …” …More

[2] The Surprising Reason People Over Age 65 Should Never Eat Rare Meat

[3] “…The widely held myth that meat hangs around longer than other foodstuffs probably stems from the fact a high-protein diet results in a lot of leftover ammonia, which must be removed in the form of urea by the kidneys. This uses extra water and if you don’t drink more to compensate, the dehydrating effect can result in constipation. But in a normal, omnivorous diet, the meat will complete its journey through your digestive system in 12 to 48 hours, along with everything else. …” …More

[4] “… -It takes 24 to 72 hours to digest meat, depending on the person’s digestive tract, state of health, medications taken, what is eaten with it, emotions and other factors. For example, a hamburger sand- wich with all the trimmings will take about 24 to 72 hours. Why? It averagely takes that time for most people’s digestive tract to do its job. But, on the whole, one to three days will completely digest, or break apart, the food. Scientists are actually able to measure this by “marking” the meal with a type of dye that eventually colors the feces (semi-solid matter that eventually is eliminated from the body via the anus as a bowel movement), so they can see when the residue of something actually exits the body. …” …More


(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #18

I’m 66 yo. Maybe this is why I like seared (well cooked) ground beef better than medium-rare steak. Is my body telling me something?


(Bob M) #19

Dr. Naiman doesn’t actually work out that hard. What he does is frequent body weight training to failure. As in 5-15 minutes, but daily. I don’t think if you add up his time over the course of a week that he does this for an hour. Maybe more, but not by much.

I’ve eating 200+ grams of protein in a single meal, with low fat. 160 grams or so causes me no issues whatsoever. 200+ grams with low fat meat caused a bit of sickness, but it’s really hard to eat that much protein. I had to eat about 2 pounds of lean (London broil/top round) meat. If you add any fat to this, you’ll be far away from that, or even if you just eat one pound of beef, you’ll be far away from this.

While the numbers seem all over the map for this meat, here’s one calculation of 24 grams/4 ounces (so, 96 grams per pound):

https://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/a19527784/london-broil-nutrition-facts/

I’ve seen other cites that list more protein than this. Hard to tell, since these things go by different names.

Lately, I’ve been cooking my beef like London broil/top round to sear the outside but leave the inside relatively raw. But I eat just the beef by itself or maybe with cheese and/or olives.


#20

It’s probably individual. 2g/kg is a bit little for me sometimes so I go way beyond it. It feels nice and I feel the need for it, I am aware my inactive body doesn’t need nearly as much but I can’t get satiated with “little” protein (maybe my small lean bodyweight matters too). The occasional 3g feels okay too, I actually do my best not to do it too often but it’s up to the signs of my body, if I am hungry, I will eat some protein rich food.
Bodybuilders with insane numbers are either don’t know enough about these things or they take steroids and able to use more for muscle building, I think… There are personal differences, of course, some guys happily bulk with 1g/kg and others experience even going over 2 is a good idea (some of them talked about some experiment where the conclusion was that people rarely use more than 1,7g, 2 is just a safe, surely enough number but in extreme cases, some more is better). But I kind of agree with the popular 1-2g/kg recommendation (as adequate protein. less for less active ones, of course but as I wrote, it’s a bit individual, we just don’t know our individual protein need, usually). I can’t help I need more for satiation so eat between 1.5 and 3, mostly between 1.8-2.5 even when I am very inactive. My body should handle the unnecessary amount if it gives me those hunger signs… Fat doesn’t satiate me well. And no matter my diet or food choices, no matter if I eat little or a ton, my protein intake is quite stubborn, never insanely high and almost never low (=below 1.5g/kg for lean bodyweight).

I don’t believe in a very general self-limiting effect. Sure, it works for many but some guys out there ARE able to eat a ton of protein. People experience problems due to overeating protein. So we can’t say it’s no concern for anyone as it actually is.

Working out doesn’t raise our protein need so extremely much. It makes overeating protein a bit harder but it’s still possible.