Done with carnivore

(Troy) #37

Just reading this article from a magazine
This may be helpful with Gout?

The Amazing Benefits of Celery Seed Extract😄

(Diane E Matters) #38

I did carnivore for almost 12 months. I ended up with gout. I do not eat any turkey or pork now. Grass Fed Beef and hormone free chicken sets well with me now that I am doing keto living again. I feel good again so I’m happy. Like you, I started listening to my body and it was scary what was happening to it once I was eating carnivore.


I had a 21 day animal products carnivore try out working from a base long term ketogenic diet.

It was an enjoyable way to eat. I stopped vegetables. But kept dairy and eggs. I kept roasted coffee beans (Is carnivore also applicable to beverages?). The coffee was double espresso strength black coffee brewed on a stove top through an Italian coffee pot. Usually I’d add a splash of medium chain triglycerides, but they are from coconut oil so I just had the black coffee straight up.

Meal times were 11 am and 5pm. Morning was 3 or 4 eggs + 80g hard cheese + bacon +/- smoked salmon, cooked in butter. Beef bone broth 250mL. Afternoon was 250g -300g beef (usually a steak) + egg cooked in butter. I drank mineral water and added Himalayan pink salt to the meals to a nice salty taste. I continued supplements of 150mg elemental magnesium twice daily as magnesium citrate and 500mg nicotinamide (a form of Vitamin B3) twice daily.

I returned to ketogenic eating that includes seaweed, some berry fruits and seasonal fruit, avocado (from a backyard tree), olive oil , avocado oil, macadamia oil, some macadamia nuts, and a rare green salad or some cooked vegetables once weekly. The green salad is rare for me to eat, it is not made up of rare green vegetables.

First thing to note was my waist line shrunk very quickly with the carnivore test. I remained weight stable over the 21 days. I did drink more water (rain water and mineral water). This increased drinking may be implicated. I felt energetic. My fasting blood glucose taken in the morning went from about 5.0mmol/L (90mg/dl) to being around 6.0mmol/L (108mg/dl) during the trial “carnivore diet”. But later in the day, between meals a spot blood glucose was usually under 90mg/dl. Usually my daily, morning, fasting blood ketones are about 0.5mmol/L. In the carnivore test, they were just detectable at 0.1mmol/L.

Unfortunately I stopped as I redeveloped some increased heart rate and palpitations. I also did develop some joint pain in my right shoulder and occasional a ‘pins and needles’ type itchiness in my hands and finger joints. The heart palpitations did respond to dosing to diarrhoea (dosing to gut tolerance) on magnesium orotate. So I didn’t relapse into atrial fibrillation. All that has calmed back down on ketogenic eating with some plant inputs.

I did get some blood tests done when my heart started to go wonky as I was interested to see if there was anything “during an episode” that may show up. My blood glucose was 8.4 mmol/L (152 mg/dl) on that test, which indicates I was stressed and likely had increased cortisol. I had a normal urine test taken at the same time, but the urine pH was 5.5, which is acidic.

Other urine numbers normal. My blood ketones were 0 mmol/L. The doctor I consulted with in this experiment noted that my blood creatinine was elevated outside of normal, suggesting kidney problems. Other blood parameters were in normal range, except my serum magnesium was in the lower third of normal. I have to get a follow up blood test because of that high creatinine result.

Back on keto, I feel fine. My water volume drinking has reduced.

During the experience Sally Norton (1) popped up on one of the podcasts I listen to. She is the researcher interested in plant anti-nutrients and, in particular, oxalates in plants. One of her anecdotes was of patients of hers who eat an oxalate free diet (close to carnivore and carnivore is definitely oxalate free (except for glycine supplementation)) who are so keen with the oxalate elimination diet they approach it zealously. And they end up in an emergency room with atrial fibrillation, as one example. The mechanism being that oxalate is highly electrically bound to minerals to form calcium oxalate or magnesium oxalate. Calcium oxalate nanocrystals can grow into macroscopic crystal conglomerates, or stones (think kidney stone, more common, spikier, but different to a uric acid kidney stone).

In my case an n=1 hypothesis, one hypothesis of a potential many, I probably should say “guess”, may be that I went on to carnivore that acted like an oxalate free diet. My body started to shed oxalate. The oxalate bound magnesium from by blood. The low magnesium created an arrhythmia. As part of shedding oxalate my urine production went up, I drank more, I lost more urine, I lost minerals, creating a deficiency in magnesium. I choose magnesium as central to the cause & effect because of the symptomatic response to taking high doses. The elevated creatinine may be purely due to increased dietary protein? I may have had increased creatinine production from increased creatine use by heart muscle in the few days of experiencing increased heart rate arrhthmia? Or it is an indication of actual kidney damage. The last being unlikely as urine concentration was normal, whereas a dilute urine is expected with kidney dysfunction. But I have to recheck to see if they ran an eGFR test.

I do have a susceptibility to heart arrhythmia, from previous biohacking experiments. It can be due to genetics. It definitely responds to very careful micronutrient management on a low carb ketogenic WOE. With that susceptibility in mind, and a possible persistent risk of being magnesium depleted, the change in diet toward carnivore did unmask an underlying issue or borderline disease state. So it is definitely worth doing a carnivore diet trial.

An elimination diet can change things that includes the release of toxins stored in body tissues.

Maybe this experience has been encountered by others?


(Polly) #40

Interesting to hear your experience. Thank you for sharing with us.


I don’t know what and who to believe when it comes to oxalates :frowning: I’m histamine intolerant and I’ve already given up drinking all teas (herbal, green and black), so maybe I will have to limit my coffee to one cup in the morning?

I will have to dedicate some time for this…keep my diet the same and just vary the cup number in the morning…


As long as you are not eating instant coffee, you should be OK.

The real test is n=1. Keep everything dietary stable and just vary the coffee variables.


Believe me, oxalates have been my enemy since I learned I have histamine intolerance. I have eliminated and eliminated some more :joy: Some say that coffee is ok, oxalate-wise, but it probably couldn’t hurt to experiment…I drink filter coffee, just in the mornings (I stopped drinking coffee all day long once I quit smoking ;))

(Edith) #44

I guess they were canceling each other out, caffeine canceling the nicotine. :joy:


It could be…the peak of my issues happened when I was no longer smoking…:thinking::joy:

(Bob M) #46

I have yet to give up coffee or tea. I drink 1-3/4 cups coffee and 1-2 cups green tea daily. If I go carnivore, I’ll likely keep that up. I would be changing too many variables if I also quit that while at the same time going carnivore.


True… i need about a month to get the baseline diet back, then off to experiment :slight_smile:

(Bob M) #48

I mean: “I drink 1 and 3/4 cups coffee and 1 or 2 cups green tea daily”. I know it’s 1 and 3/4 cups coffee because I measure it: I take 3/4 cup of cold-brewed coffee and dilute to 1+3/4 cups, which fits into my spill-proof mug. 2 cups fits, but just barely, so I use less to have some space while screwing the cap on.

If I’m fasting, I tend to drink 2 cups green tea. If I’m eating, I only drink 1 or sometimes none. Fasting is so difficult, I need all the help I can get.


Get ready for some bathroom talk.
So when I first went keto, I had constant diarrhea. Pretty much every bowel movement. It wasn’t several months into carnivore that it finally stopped.

Now that I’ve quit carnivore I have the opposite problem. I’ve had several pounds of plant matter lodged in my colon all week. I finally got a lot of it out, but it took several tablespoons of mct oil AND an old 500mg metformin pill I had sitting around. Those are both known to give me total intestinal mayhem oh their own. Their combined power was barely enough to give me an almost normal bowel movement. I still feel packed full of vegetables. I’m going to try a big dose of magnesium on my night off. We’ll see if that gets things moving.

(Kel Ta) #50

Too much fat on carnivore and keto seemed to cause fat gain. Constipation and energy was a problem on pure carnivore despite how much electrolyte and salt ingested. Fasting insulin was higher than expected on prolonged fasting with carnivore- not sure why even though A1C and regular glucose was low to normal.

Now eating some greens with moderate protein without adding lots of fat, body comp has resolved and energy and digestion are better- so I guess maybe just low carb now- leaning toward Naiman MD? - abandoned Keto Macros and intermittent fasting and eat when hungry now. The only difference is that on keto high fat I didn’t actually feel hunger as much- but I also gained weight. I should note that I am experimenting with WOE to help gut and nerve issues not weight management so weight gain was a surprise.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #51

An adequate salt intake will help prevent constipation. Try to get 10-15 grams of table salt a day—including whatever salt is already present in your food. (A carnivore diet tends to decrease our need for extra salt, because there is a lot of salt already present in flesh meat.)

(Bunny) #52

Celery is some amazing stufff!

(Judith) #53

What’s DAO?

(Bob M) #54

If you like nitrates…

(Edith) #55

It is an enzyme that we secrete in our stomachs to help us break down the histamine in food. In some people, particularly women, and middle-aged ones at that, the DAO levels decrease causing what seem to be allergic reactions to food, but are really from eating foods that contain too much histamine, i.e. aged and fermented foods, some fruits and vegetables with naturally occurring histamine, leftovers, meats that aren’t as fresh as they could be.

(Judith) #56

Ok thanks!