Done with carnivore

#1

Going back to plain keto. I felt pretty great on carnivore except for one (well ,I guess two) problem.

Uric acid.

It wasn’t quick, but after about six months of going carnivore I had a kidney stone, then another with gout at the same time. I’ve had gout pretty much constantly ever since despite taking a nearly maximum dose of allopurinol every day and switching my blood pressure medicine to losartan, which has a side effect of lowering uric acid. The only thing that eases the pain is colchicine, but you aren’t supposed to take it long term, and a few days after I go off the pain and suffering returns. My weight loss has also stalled for almost a year. If I really lower the protein and crank up the fat, I can get my weight to start dropping, but if I let up on the protein restriction at all the weight comes back. I tried taking tart cherry extract, green tea extract, and curcumin (all at the same time). The first two are shown to lower uric acid curcumin is anecdotally reported to. Several months of that and my gout changed locations a few times, bouncing between different joints, but it never went away, in fact the flares seemed to get worse. My last attack was particularly crippling, and I couldn’t even limp to the bathroom. I had to crawl on my hands and knees.

Anyway, another symptom I’ve had the last few months is constant hunger. No matter how much I ate, no matter how many sticks of butter I ate with a spoon, I was always hungry. Sure, the butter or meat or whatever I ate was satisfying for awhile, but I would be hungry again soon after. It felt just like I did when I ate carbs! It was that “why am I still hungry even though my stomach feels like it might rupture” feeling.

I’ve been doing some research (googling) and noticed something. Insulin resistance can raise uric acid levels and cause gout, but it works the other way, too. High uric acid levels can cause insulin resistance! I think this is why I was so hungry all the time. My insulin resistance came back as uric acid levels crept up.

So there’s more to this already long and rambling post. I recently bought some potassium citrate to try and lower my uric acid level (before anyone freaks out I cleared it with my Dr.) I’ve noticed that since I’ve started taking it the last few days, I’ve suddenly been a lot less hungry. It may be placebo, but I was not at all expecting this. I don’t think it’s from lowering uric acid, I think I may have had a subclinical potassium deficiency. I stopped supplementing with it when I first went on telmisartan. I’ve recently discovered that potassium itself can lower uric acid, and that it can also help with insulin resistance. I’m on my phone, nor am I posting in the “show me the science” section, so I’m not going to try and copy and paste a bunch of links, but I’ve found several studies showing potassium to lower insulin resistance and help with weight loss.

Another issue is vitamin c. Carnivore is not particularly high in vitamin c. There are some studies showing that vitamin c helps power uric acid levels. There is also at least one study finding no effect. Vitamin c has also been shown to help insulin resistance. Yes there are arguments that since carnivores take in so little sugar, they absorb and use the little bit of vitamin c they use very well.

Here’s the thing, before I went carnivore, I was losing weight very easily and wasn’t hungry. I had no gout. Once I went carnivore, my weight loss slowed to a crawl, so I’m going to go back to the way I used to eat: lots of salads with plenty of dressing and fixings, fresh vegetables, fat bombs, and gasp! Plenty of artificial sweeteners. I’ll be getting plenty of potassium and vitamin c, and probably lower purine intake as well, though the evidence for dietary purine causing gout is actually pretty weak, despite a low purine diet being a common treatment for gout.

We’ll see what happens. Maybe I’m just deluding myself, but I have high hopes that I can get back on track. I’d like thoughts and feedback.

(mole person) #2

I love carnivore. I feel my best ever, have had far improved healing than I did on basic keto, and got down to my current weight of 104 lbs. But I don’t like carnivore at all the way a lot of people practice it. High protein makes me feel absolutely lousy. It’s every bit as shitty feeling as high carbs. So I keep my protein under 80 grams and fill with lots of fat. But I don’t use any rendered fats and that includes butter. I just eat solid beef fat that I get from the butcher. Rendered fats are hard on my system, too much at once nauseate me. Also, fat still bound in its cellular protein structure is way more satiating because it takes longer to digest and doesn’t hit your system all at once.

I’m not trying to talk you out of going back to keto, but it’s worth considering that it’s not carnivory that’s the problem but too much protein and butter. I know that makes me very ill, and yet I thrive on high fat/no dairy carnivore.

(Kristen Ann) #3

So I have had 20-30 kidney stones in a period of 4 years. I’ve had them blasted 4 times. I take potassium citrate and monitor my pH at my doctor’s request.

When I went keto, my urine became more alkaline and pH was neutral at 7. A safe number for kidney stones.

Since eating mostly carnivore, my pH has dropped to 6.0 to 6.25. This is a little more acidic than I’m comfortable with. My doctor tells me to adjust my potassium citrate intake (to a point) as needed. So I’ve increased it some and am trying to drink more mineral (alkaline) water.

For me I have two negatives when it comes to carnivore, and pH is one of them. But also the positives outweigh the negatives at this point. I’m going to keep trying to raise my pH without adding veggies in.

(Tammy) #4

Interesting. I have been taking Uloric (had side affects to Allopurinal) to lower my Uric Acid. I had high uric acid without any gout attacks.

However, the company that makes Uloric has discontinued their “savings” card and it now is cost prohibitive to me. I am willing to try allopurinal again, it’s been 10 years or so; I will research the potassium citrate also.

Thanks for your post.

Tammy

(Edith) #5

I think you are smart to listen to your body.

#6

The thing is, I felt just fine on plain keto. I only went carnivore in an effort to min-max my diet, and I seem to have done the opposite. I kinda feel silly that it’s taken me this long to see that.

#7

When you’ve maxed out potassium citrate you can still add in sodium citrate and citric acid. I forgot why potassium citrate is superior to sodium citrate, but adding in sodium citrate is better than doing nothing.

Have you tried goodrx? I get all my prescriptions through them since I don’t have insurance. If it weren’t for that and Walmart’s four dollar list I’d probably be dead from a hypertensive crisis or something.

(Bob M) #8

If you feel fine on keto, there’s no reason to go carnivore. Although if you go carnivore, maybe you would feel even better, at least some report this to be true. If you feel worse, it’s time to go back to keto or whatever makes you feel better.

(Joey) #9

@SporkyDonkey Thanks for taking the time to share the details of your experience with carnivore. As you well know, everyone’s body presents a unique variation on an otherwise common theme, so it’s interesting to learn how yours behaves on different versions of low-carb eating.

(Bob M) #10

This brings up a good conversation about why to try carnivore if you don’t seem to be doing poorly at keto. For me, I’ll be going carnivore for a while, and it’s because certain items cause me issues. For instance, I can have ham, onions, and mustard, and get an allergic reaction (sniffling, etc.). If I have ham by itself, it doesn’t happen. But it’s tricky, as the allergic reactions don’t always happen for this, but do happen often enough to get me thinking. If i have something spicy, I basically always get an allergic reaction, and if I have wheat a similar thing happens.

For me, going to carnivore would be trying it as an elimination diet, then adding things back in one at a time to see what happens. And I have to try carnivore long enough to see if there really is another other benefits that I did not experience doing keto.

(Joey) #11

@ctviggen I find your comment to be intriguing … I have always noticed that my nose gets a little runny when I eat spicy things. Hot mustard, peppers, horseradish, etc. But I never thought of this as an allergic reaction. I consider this the very natural (and desirable) effect of spices such as these opening up my sinus passages.

That’s one of the really enjoyable, healthy feelings I get when I eat “hot” seasonings. Yeah, a little drippy sensation results, but I’ve experienced it as a good thing, not an allergy.

Funny how we have similar reactions to certain foods yet different reactions in our minds as to whether it’s a problem or a solution :wink:

#12

Not trying to convince people to not try carnivore. In fact, I think animal foods are necessary for health, but basically, my diet wasn’t broke and I fixed it until it was.

I mostly posted to get feedback and make sure I wasn’t way off base. Gout is excruciating. The only thing worse was my second kidney stone. It is not uncommon for women to claim that their gout or kidney stone was worse than childbirth. If I can help someone suffering with uric acid issues that’s a bonus. If carnivore works for you, by all means, do it.

(April Harkness) #13

Same… I had to watch my dairy. I still do it. Just limited. Much more limited than when on keto. Just 1-2 tbls of butter, and one piece of cheese. Any more and it’s over. I have been doing lab work diligiently. I actually did just get lab work done and my uric acid was normal. In fact my blood work was boring…everything was normal limits (except lipids , of course and today am doing a fasting insulin. Will let you all know what that is when I get it. Will be interesting to see as a carnviore. ) I actually feel like I lost too much weight on carnivore and was still dropping as of last week (started in JUN). . am now starting to stabilize on carnivore with a few tweaks. i stalled on regular keto. But Like @llana_rose I feel my best on carnviore, so here I shall stay unless something happens. We are all different though so like @virginiaedie said- listen to your body. For some like @SporkyDonkey regular keto works, for some of us…carnivore is what heals us. For me I had to go carnivore to heal from my binge eating disorder as well as metabolic damage I received from taking an antipsychotic medication.Perhaps without that antipsychotic medication affecting me regular keto might have been just fine. Just goes to show that there are different approaches under the keto umbrella that we can try without leaving the keto world.

(Bob M) #14

It’s unclear to me whether an allergic reaction (or what I classify as an allergic reaction) is good or bad. I do find it odd that if I eat meat by itself, I never get these. Same for eggs. Even for cheese and other dairy.

Certainly, a vegan or vegetarian would argue that these are good responses, but it’s not clear to me that they are. For instance, what does this mean from an autoimmune perspective? Maybe this could cause an autoimmune response? Like this, for instance:

Spices from the nightshade family (mainly peppers) also contain capsaicin (one of the chemicals that give them heat), which is a gut irritant–don’t reintroduce these until you are ready to reintroduce all nightshades (and I would start with eggplants and bell peppers before trying chili peppers).

At one time, I just ignored these types of responses, but as I’ve been eating more and more meat and less and less vegetable matter/spices, I find them to be somewhat shocking.

It’s like when you’re high carb, and you think wild mood swings and highs and crashes and allergies are all “normal”. Then you go on low carb/keto and don’t have any of those after a while. They weren’t “normal”.

Maybe it’s the same way with sneezing, runny nose, runny eyes, etc., when eating things like onions, mustard, spicy/hot food? Maybe that’s not “normal”?

(Joey) #15

Like most things in life (and health), perhaps it’s a matter of balance?

Maybe there’s something to be concerned about here, but I sincerely doubt it. Of course, I can’t speak to how someone else’s body reacts - and at what point things are more unpleasant than they’re worth.

But mucous secretions in general are an essential part of vital good health. Within balance, I’d rather have them than not :wink:

And so, eating some menu items that encourage some loosening of mucous in the sinuses seems like a naturally important part of how my body is designed to deal with dust and other particles in the air we breathe that are best ejected.

Speaking of excretions, whether we find dealing with various bodily fluids (and solids) to be pleasant or not, our body’s ability to toss them overboard is an essential endpoint for our immune systems.

So even if I could put an end to this, I wouldn’t think that getting to the point where this stops happening would be a better state to aim for.

On the other hand, a bit of a runny nose in response to the “heat” of spices? Bring it on! Feels good to me - part of the joy of eating.

Akin to how feeling a bit relaxed after a glass of wine makes for a nice way to end a wonderful day. :hot_pepper::clinking_glasses:

(Jane Srygley) #16

Thanks for sharing that. I was seriously considering carnivore but decided against it. I don’t think it’s for everyone.

(Tammy) #17

GoodRx is the same cost as the deductible for my insurance. I’ll be talking to my doctor about alternatives when i see her next month.

(Robert C) #18

If you were thinking about it - Carnivore might be a good plateau buster or just elimination diet for you - for like a month.

If some auto-immune issue or GI-tract issue goes away - maybe think about longer.

I think Carnivore could be similar to running on rocket fuel all of the time. It might seem good initially for lots of reasons but maybe could lead to burnout quickly also.

(Libby) #19

I learned somewhere that the average person makes a liter of mucous a day. :smiley:

(Joey) #20

The w-o-r-l-d is alive :musical_score::musical_note::notes: … with the sound of mu-cous … :musical_score::musical_note::notes: