Does this study on fasting show that fasting doesn't work?


#21

and dry fasting at that HA speak for some but never for the entire population out there that will never ‘be just you’ and a few others that follow suit. 8 billion on the planet, give me some truths. Blanket statements like this without big support mean nothing to be a select few truly thru the 8 bil on the earth

not a darn thing ever saying…what worked for me personally but to put it thru as real truth is oh so tough for many to read and wondering why what worked for U will never be them :wink:


(Mark Rhodes) #22

and @BuckRimfire I used to run marathons. Knees are so frustrating.

I am currently trying to help my wife get better use out of her knees. She wanted to start with Prolo therapy which seems like witchcraft and ineffective voodoo. I would like to try BPC-157 an amino acid peptide which I see has some positive traction along with Platelet Rich Plasma. She has degenerative knee cartilage as well as a possible Ehlers Danlos diagnosis on top of fibromyaglia and more.I even had a protein tested by a Professor at Urbana Champaign who is working on a vaccine to treat fibromyalgia and her score was 88 out of 100 and is awaiting the second round of trials.

I hope that a keto carnivore diet might reduce some of her inflammation and have made plans on how we might address this.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #23

@richard @marklifestyle @BuckRimfire

I agree about cycling. Take care of your knees, you’re going to miss them when they’re gone. If you get to the point where even cycling hurts, slow down and/or add motor assist.


(Ohio ) #24

I’m buying a back inversion table to hopefully eliminate clicking in my left knee. I can’t imagine a life without decent knees. Give it another decade we could be powering our houses with stationary bikes. Don’t put your money in Peloton.


(Old Baconian) #25

Can’t remember who the comic was who said this, but I have adopted his motto: “No pain . . . no pain.” :rofl::rofl:


(BuckRimfire) #26

Can confirm platelet rich plasma seems to work. After my yoga incident, my knee was swollen for weeks. Finally went to sports med clinic in Feb, got fluid extracted with a big syringe (~30 mL or so). Partial recurrence of swelling, went back a few weeks later and got a bit more fluid extracted and a PRP injection. Stopped pain and recurrence of swelling for a few months. Too bad it costs $600 per treatment! I’d get them often if it was cheaper.

I’ve been challenging the knee somewhat this summer (weight training and a little Irish dance) and having some symptoms. Using ice after workouts to control. If not for continuing to abuse it, I’d probably be having few problems.


(BuckRimfire) #27

My motto now is “You’re only as old as your titanium replacement joints feel.”

Torn cartilage seems unlike to fix itself. I’m resigned to getting a partial knee replacement in the short- to mid-term (0.5 to 2 years, probably).


(Old Baconian) #28

:rofl::rofl::rofl:


(Richard Morris) #29

My father and all his siblings have had at least one (and sometimes 2) knees replaced. I’m hoping to avoid that for as long as I can as the anticipated lifespan of a replaced joint is apparent about 10 years … so hopefully I can hold it off until the last 10 years of my life to avoid having to do it multiple times.


(Susan Kwasney) #30

Your analysis has put my worries to rest. My action plan, to get rid of my recent post partum fat gain, is keto, extended fasts and exercise. I’ve had very good results with that pre-pregnancy. I was worried when I saw a keto celebrity’s summarization of the paper specially regarding lean muscle loss. But, as others did, realized there is an issue with the participants body composition. I was searching the internet for answers since this keto celebrity didn’t offer an explanation and edited the comments and then turned off the commentary. I should’ve gone to this forum right away…

I’ve also seen the paper’s conclusion, by beforementioned keto celebrity, summarized with: “no significance in insulin sensitivity, no favorable changes in inflammation gene expression and autophagy”. I don’t see that described in the paper’s abstract?

I have not read the paper in its full extend. The abstract mentions they saw no favorable changes in metabolic regulation and cardiovascular health.

Is inflammation gene expression and autophagy the same as metabolic regulation and cardiovascular health”?

What are your thoughts?


(Richard Morris) #31

I suspect that was an over-vigilant moderator on that group who freaked out when I pointed out the potential danger in treating caloric restriction with a PSMF. Yeah I just copied what I wrote there that they had deleted and reposted it in this forum where the moderators are a lot more reasonable. I suspect that group may not in the fullness of time enjoy benefits of censoring someone who has a larger platform than theirs.

in lean people - no ■■■■ sherlock. Try it in the metabolically dysfunctional that comprise 88% of the US population and I suspect you’ll see a different result. Especially if they aren’t eating a Nestlé approved “fair and balanced” diet.

No significant difference in expression of genes suspected to be involved in autophagy suggests that it takes more than 1 day of fasting to upregulate the machinery of autophagy from the background expression. Suggesting that their labile pool of amino acids was adequate to buffer the energy shortfall and upregulation wasn’t required. Maybe see what happens in this population on a longer fast that depletes the labile pool.


(Kirk Wolak) #32

I think Dr. Lustig makes the point. It’s not what you consume, it’s what your body does with it.
Also, it becomes about the environment you have, and the energy you have available.

Keep in mind, you still have glycogen for fuel as well. If you are keto adapted, you can still have ONE DAY of glycogen calories, PLUS your fat calories. If you are “healthy” (which, to me, means able to efficiently switch between glycogen and fat), then you may have 1 more days buffer than you realize.

Finally, I believe inflammation (or in your case, the lack thereof) could be helping you. My body spends a crazy amount of “energy” dealing with latent inflammation. The less inflamed, the more energy I have. And it usually takes fasting. So I am paradoxical. I get more energy from fasting with light movement than I do from consuming calories! (especially the wrong calories).

To a point of about 72hrs of fasting, where my hands and feet start getting cold, and I want to sleep it off… Imagine that ADF was my natural preference…


(Central Florida Bob ) #33

FWIW, my wife has had both of her hips replaced, and the original one is 18 years old now. No real signs it needs to be replaced. A lot depends on things like your size, weight, how well your muscles support the joint, and if your gait introduces odd wear. They rarely talk about that.

Also FWIW, I moved to cycling most of the time in the early '90s (I also did some duathlons back then) and went to cycling exclusively in the early '00s. I had an orthopedic surgeon tell me (with a fatherly tone), “you know, you’re not built like a runner.” That was at a visit for Runner’s Knee - chondromalacia patellae.

Now that I’m retired, I ride less than when I was working for a living, but still do a few one hour rides a week.


#34

Just got my hip replaced (I’m 60), and my surgeon told me that today’s materials are likely to last 40 years. (Knees might be different.) I think they can only claim “ten years” because so few (if any) studies have systematically followed people up for longer. Not to mention, studies published today are on materials used 10+ years ago. My mom died recently at almost 104 with a hip replacement she got in her 70s. Never had a problem. Of course, the surgeon you choose also matters.


(Mark Rhodes) #35

After supplying evidence to the contrary o the owner, including my own data ,all of it was erased. I talked with the sites owner by his PM, which is his personal. I was told by the owner “this is not a if it works site” . I was also then told it was a science site. WTF? Sounds like a editorial page of opinions.

I logged many of the same complaints about autophagy. On a fast it takes me 36-48 hours for my muscles to stop dumping glycogen. I know it’s this by both my keto mojo & my weight. If glycogen to water ratio isc1:3 and I lose six pounds of weight the first day of every single fast & 3 more day two that is water being released as the glycogen is used. Literally for me about a gallon. Day three sugar goes down, ketones go up to 2.0 mmol>.

The same blogger gave a very poor understanding of protein as the “most important macro” yesterday at LC USA that underwhelmed compared to an earlier presentation…but I digress.


#36

If you can bare it, Layne Norton did a video on his channel on this study. Credit to him, he tried to present it in a balanced way but he was clearly trying to contain his glee and an urge to stick up two fingers to Jason Fung.

I was not surprised by the findings as it chimes with another study done years before:

Alternate-day fasting in nonobese subjects: effects on body weight, body composition, and energy metabolism; [Leonie K Heilbronn et al]

The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition , Volume 81, Issue 1, January 2005

Subjects here again lost both FM and FFM. Fat oxidation went up and glucose oxidation went down. And there was only a small drop in resting energy expenditure after 22 days.

In another metanalysis paper looking at ADF in non-lean subjects, the results were different:

Effect of alternate-day fasting on obesity and cardiometabolic risk: A systematic review and meta-analysis

August 07, 2020 DOI

The authors here stated: ‘Subgroup analyses indicated that significant intervention effects were observed for BMI, BW, FM, and total cholesterol when compared to the control, the participants were overweight, and the study duration was <6 months. ADF is effective in reducing waist circumference in adults aged ≥40 years with obesity. However, there was no difference between ADF and continuous energy restriction, time-restricted feeding, or control with regard to lean body mass.’

Based on these combined findings, you may argue that ADF is not an optimal strategy for preserving LM if you are already lean but more efficacious if you are overweight. Of course, adding resistance training and/or undertaking ADF when fat-adapted may skew these findings yet again.


#37

I was reading the FAQ of the Virta site yesterday and read they think fasting is bad for you and discourage it. There were links to papers on the subject and discussion, should anyone be interested to check on their reasons.

Is there evidence (not anecdotal), that fasting is effective for getting rid of extra skin? If there is, then it would be a matter of deciding how far one wants to go to perhaps solve a problem.


#38

I believe in ‘natural fasting times’ that one experiences in life when they are well fed, well healed internally and their well being is more in tact and their overall ‘balance of a healthy physical body’ come into play.

So many of us are not there yet ya know…in that those who seek a healthier eating like a Keto Plan or Carnivore or just a very good low carb menu lifestyle means it takes time to heal and change.

When one heals and changes they can do ‘natural not hungry times’ and go longer without food which is what the healed body is asking for…not forced thru pain and suffering and ‘can I make 8 days with no food?’ and more of that crazy.

Natural fasting is normal.
Forced fasting is not normal.

But many can fall into that, I love to do a 2-3 day fast, and they can thrive on it but it becomes very very personal who can do well on it and is this type of action a long term sustainable lifestyle change?

So do you but don’t ‘overdo you’ on any tips and tricks, fasting being one of them.

I think fasting is way over used and not understood out there. It won’t be a cure all or fix all or more for most of us. Food heals and nutritional intake is what changes and repairs the body so…everyone, eat good and start there first :slight_smile:


#39

I will dig out a paper on fasting but make no mistake, it has benefits regarding autophagy, inflammation, etc.

As an aside, how did humans ever establish themselves if they could not withstand periods of fasting? I fail to see the logic of those who criticise the practice as unnatural or detrimental. A day 1 anthropology student would probably echo that.


(Marion) #40

I had a good pain reduction of an arthritic knee from platelet rich plasma for about 3 weeks, if I recall?
Here it’s more expensive and since it only lasted a short time, I didn’t keep getting it. I was part of a large research into plasma for arthritis of the knee and I think the result was that it didn’t work for any reversal generally.
I ended up reluctantly having surgery last January.
Falling apart, really!