Does remaining in ketosis long term diminish our ability to deal with carbs?

(Brian) #1

This might have been talked about before but I haven’t seen it exactly.

I’ve been wondering about remaining in ketosis for very long periods of time and whether that diminishes the body’s ability to deal with carbohydrates and sugars if/when they show up.

When we specifically ignore a body part, it generally shrivels and atrophies. I had that happen to my lower leg when I badly broke the two bones just above my ankle back in 2015. I had to spend 4 months in a boot with zero weight on it. It wasn’t all that pretty as I went from zero use, zero weight, to trying to use it again. Yes, it came back but it took quite a while to become fully functional again.

Would the same thing happen to the pancreas and the systems involved with making insulin and dealing with carbs and sugar if we never used them, never stressed them at all? Would it be better to have controlled stresses on the system such that it gets some periodic exercise? I’m not suggesting severe overload with some kind of binge. But basically exercising the system in a healthy kind of way. (I’m not sure what form that would take or what it would look like exactly. I have an idea or two but not completely thought out.)

There may be some people who’s pancreas and similar organs have been damaged to the point where they’re not coming back, no matter how much healing time they’re given and an exercise like the above would only do more harm. I get that. But I’m thinking of pretty much normal people who are doing the keto thing just to be healthy.

Am I all wrong in my thoughts that maybe periodic “cheat days” or “carb-ups” or whatever you’d want to call them, might actually be helpful in maintaining good health? Are people who end up with a couple of days every couple of months of eating too many carbs and then beating themselves up for it actually complaining about something that’s good for them in terms of overall health?

I don’t know the answers, but it’s something I’ve been wondering about.

(Ken) #2

I’m certainly an advocate of periodic, non-chronic Carb intake. In nearly two decades, I’ve never regained an ounce of fat. In fact, I’ve actually lost fat each year.

#3

no, of course not. no mechanism exists to inhibit carbohydrate metabolism (unlike lipolysis) “metabolic flexibility” is a ridiculous term used by carbohydrate apologists and people who want to justify eating more grains, sugar and crap.

(Brian) #4

I wasn’t looking for an excuse or a justification to pig out on junk every so often. Not at all. Only seeking a “best practices” of sort for healthy people.

If no mechanism exists to inhibit carbohydrate metabolism, what is it that inhibits it when the pancreas is so burned out that it can’t effectively make insulin anymore? The question I was asking was whether the other extreme, that of requiring almost nothing from the pancreas for extended periods of time will inhibit it’s ability to effectively make insulin as well. I appear to have your answer. Thanks.

(Trish) #5

It’s a good question and I’m eager to read some answers or thoughts on this also. Hopefully some of the more sciency folks on here will chime in.

#6

I’ll be eager to hear the responses on this one too. I don’t think this will ever be an issue for me due to occasional planned/unplanned “cheat” meals, but am still interested to hear more on the topic.

#7

I would think that most people are consuming some carbs, up to 20g net per day in most cases, thus allowing the body to continue utilizing both processes regularly (though this is all conjecture as I have only my logic to chime in). However, I also do not see a reason to completely vilify carbs and sugar to the point of never allowing an indulgence here and there (for those who are metabolically healthy enough to do so). In the long run, enjoying a slice of cake at a party or having a non ketogenic dinner once in a blue moon is something that WILL happen for me and I see no reason to feel guilty for that when I know it’s just an occasional treat and will only delay progress for a short while. My 2 cents.

(Doug) #8

Brian, good question. For many of us, it’s our accumulated, relative inability to deal well with carbohydrates (and in quantity) that got our metabolisms off-balance in the first place, so I think it will often be a long road before that question really comes up.

If we get to the point of maximum possible healing for the pancreas, etc., and our insulin resistance is down near whatever the practical limit is, then I wonder… At that point, even if we were somehow “out of practice” as far as carbohydrate digestion, if such a thing is really possible, it sounds like a good problem to have, versus the current reality for many of us.

(Brian) #9

Thanks for chiming in. I guess I was thinking more in terms of a person who’s already arrived at where they want to be. They’re healthy, they’re at their ideal weight, they’re maintaining, and probably exercising in some way. “Progress” might not mean the same as someone who’s still trying to lose that last 30 pounds or trying to get off of their insulin, that kind of thing. I know, we probably never get to the point where we feel like we’ve “arrived”, but for someone like that, I was bouncing around the ideas of moving into and out of ketosis, thinking that the more accustomed our bodies are to doing it, the easier it may become, and also wondering whether a significant stressing of the system that causes our bodies to have to deal with a large dose of carbs periodically may be helpful in maintaining good health, too. It’s possible that those in the weightlifting community might have more to say even though I wasn’t necessarily thinking of being a weightlifter in particular.

It may be one of those tough questions that hard to really answer. And it might be ones of those things that will have a different specific answer for different specific people, much like “how many carbs does it take to know you out of ketosis?”.

Whether there is ever really an answer or not, I’ve appreciated the comments. :slight_smile:

(Brian) #10

True, Doug.

I do apologize if I am coming from a place that maybe not that many here are seeing in their near future. We tend to see things from where we are personally, a near-sightedness of sorts.

I’m only around 30 pounds from my desired weight, no meds, doing pretty well, and am contemplating what good health looks like going forward once I get where I want to be. That’s at least part of where the original question came from. But it might be a very long way from where many reading might be.

Hope that doesn’t come across as bragging or anything, not intended that way. I am very thankful that I was able to do something about declining health before it had gone so far as to be nigh unto impossible to get back to anything resembling normal. I am blessed to be doing so well, as someone popular likes to say, better than I deserve. :wink:

(Robin) #11

I suppose if you looked at the issue from a “what would our ancestors have eaten?” kind of standpoint, perhaps something a bit more low carb/paleo/IF type diet would be what the organs of the body are designed for with periods of time in ketosis, some periods of fasting and periods of time with a more abundance of starches. I have no idea of any actual science out there though.

(Allan L) #12

You also need to consider your gut microbiome. After spending months / years eating keto then throwing a load of carbs at them will have to cause issues.

Well, I believe this is the reason why people get gut cramps when having excess carbs after a long period of abstaining, I know I do.

(Doug) #13

Heck, Brian, no need to worry about bragging or apologies, here. :slightly_smiling_face: Great topic - it’s cool to think about such stuff.

I’d say a lot of it boils down to "Does our endocrine system need to be ‘exercised’?

Really just my gut feeling here - I’d say the answer, almost always, is no. An exception would perhaps be someone who’d never eaten a certain type of diet, and then had a big dose of it - I’m picturing it stressing the body to a greater extent than would having had a little of it all along.

In general, I think that less hormone secretion is better than more. Best not to have to need the “more,” with whatever compromising effects it has, and the required chain-reaction processes, i.e. continuing hormonal regulation attempts by the body. I feel it’s the same for the liver - usually it does better with less work, rather than more. Rest and self-purification are better than a “workout” for the liver.

I realize this is all fairly tenuous and nebulous. In the end, I see it as a “less is more” thing, the same as that the weight of evidence seems to be leaning fairly hard toward the side of caloric restriction prolonging life. Muscle tissue does better with some exercise - I’d flatly state that. Do our pancreatic beta cells need to “practice” secreting insulin? I don’t think so.

Physical exercise has related benefits for many of our hormonal systems. “Dealing with carbs” - if one eats carbs then burns some of them up via exercise, to me that sounds preferable to secreting insulin to deal with the entire load, again because I’m picturing the body being stressed, to some extent, by the required attempts to regulate blood sugar, one way and then potentially the other.

And of course it’s not so simple as that - exercise makes for more secretion of some hormones with glands firing up - Thyroid, Adrenal and Pituitary. Certain kinds of exercise may result in stress and the subsequent increased production of cortisol, which may have bad effects.

I still really do not know - if we’re in ketosis for a long time, does that somehow impair our ability to digest carbs and respond to the subsequent blood sugar changes? Just my 2 cents’ worth here - I doubt it.