Does dairy inhibit the health benefits of antioxidant foods?

#1

I have been reading a few articles and studies of late on the benefits (or lack of benefits and adverse effects) of coffee, though I’m still not willing to give my precious coffee up. And I came across this article which suggests the problem could be pairing coffee and tea with dairy. Though the article does also stress the current research is too conflicting to be sure.

I enjoy my coffee (3-4 mugs) daily with a hefty dose of cream. I also enjoy a nice dollop of butter on my pork and beef, and cheese as well. But perhaps our nutrient profile would improve further, if we ate each food separately? Though how fun would that be? So, a bowl of whipped cream, and a plain black coffee perhaps an hour before or later. A plate of cheese as a snack, and an hour or so before or later the main meal, with nothing but salt then added?

Now, I’m currently ketovore. But if you’re on a ketogenic WOE, reading about all the anti-nutrients in the plant world and all the conflicting research there, would surely be enough to drive anyone mad. Perhaps that’s one of the draws for me, for now, in eating only meat, fish, eggs, cheese, butter and cream. Though I might try and reinstate a few vegetables, berries and nuts at a later point. I’m not ruling anything out as I remain open to what my body tells and shows me.

What are your thoughts on anti-nutrients then? How do you balance it all, and do you think it matters? Now if I was trying to eat in a balanced way on keto I would be asking myself, quite frequently: Do I really want to be thinking about food like a math equation?

But anyway, back to coffee. I realise I’m an addict, to both coffee AND cream. That combination is, by far, the best combination in the whole culinary world, for me. Would I drink coffee on its own then? Probably not. I’d probably just go back to drinking green tea. But there is more to the equation than antinutrient-like properties in various foods and beverages. As they are much depleted in themselves. I suppose if we still get some benefits from what we’re eating and drinking we shouldn’t worry too much. But being experimental in nature, I have begun eating each food separately to see if that improves both my nutrient profile and my energy.

#2

I am gonna hit very basic on this one. Others might ‘science it out more for ya’ but key is all about you truly.

More we read more we get brain jacked in a way. Which is good but holds some bad for alot of us in our journey.

Key being, as a carnivore I can ‘eat’ xyz and do very well and get results and feel top dog, simple as that. I can eat dairy easily and gain all the results of great I want, others can’t.

Could I go back? eat whatever? thru trial and error I could but at this point I also ‘have food issues/disorders’ that I dealt with and for me personally, my best control and eating to abandon and best is my zc lifestyle. So it suits me best.

Now I am into easily toxins from plants can rob the body. It is science fact but to what level for you as you are now? We know a shrimp allergy person can’t eat shrimp. Done deal. We know peanut allergy won’t eat peanuts. Done deal. But other toxin accumulations your body is not doing well on but once more repaired thru better eating can be enjoyed, again, IF YOU do ok on them :slight_smile:

I know I can eat mushrooms easily and not trigger eating issues and more but in the end I know one thing, a mushroom means nothing to me now ‘cause my eating lifestyle’ gives me all I need.

So it is 100% about your body and what triggers you, what makes you feel best, what you can eat and enjoy and still get results you personally want. I hate to say it but at some point, one has to ‘stand alone’ in this big change. When one puts the focus on them only and what they eat and their reactions and can handle doing just that, you win thru it all.

Your ‘eating daily’ must work for your body…but then we ‘got life out there’ with eating out with family and cooking for family and life events and more and one must find that balance best for them. We do but it takes time for sure for alot of us! Your personal food intake must ‘equal’ life as you live it and enjoy it thru the years’…ain’t got that, ya can’t hold an eating change for better health. So we all had ‘long long term’ goal issues in mine that had 0 to do with the scale, well, at least me.

If we try to micro manage our bodies on what we ‘read’ out there on every little reaction and more as it happens for ‘some’ we can lose sight of us in a nano-second.

Do you. Eat as you need. If you do that and really put that inward focus on your best eating day, best results and more vibrant health you get from those foods, I can’t tell you how much of great life opens up to you!!

ok just a fluffy chat on it but heck I had to walk thru the ‘mirco science’ and do me and for me, it worked if I put all focus on me, while reading ‘what ifs’ out there. wishing you the best!!

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #3

Firstly, when someone publishes an article like this, it’s inevitably the results of some epidemiological study, so the very first question is whether this is a real effect, or the result of some confounder in the data. (Remember that shoe size correlates strongly with reading comprehension, but not because the size of our shoes determines how well we read. Nor does learning to read better make our feet grow.) Only a randomised controlled study can demonstrate actual causation.

It is also often true, with stories such as this, that the number of subjects studied is small, which makes for less-reliable data. Moreover even though the effect may be statistically significant, in such studies the clinical effect is often quite small. (For example, statins have been shown to have a statistically significant effect on increasing lifespan, but the increase amounts to about four or five added days of life.)

Lastly, folk wisdom is often pretty good at uncovering this sort of risk. Look at how traditional cultures always combine beans and rice, for example, to get a better amino acid profile. I suspect that if dairy really caused problems, we’d have figured it out by now.

On the other hand, it just occurred to me that this study was done on a population of carb-eaters, that probably really needs exogenous anti-oxidants. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that on a high carb diet dairy does really interfere. But it has been shown that on a ketogenic diet, the β-hydroxybutyrate produced in ketogenesis restores our endogenous anti-oxidants, which were turned off by elevated insulin. So still not a concern for ketonians.

#4

Hi Fangs, your comment is both wise and insightful. Yes, we have to listen to our own bodies and do us, as one WOE does not fit all. As to vitality … Because I am on Tamoxifen which causes fatigue, it’s more tricky. I am ever enjoying my carnivore WOE, but my energy levels became so depleted that yesterday morning I ate a small handful of almonds, and in the afternoon steamed a few broccoli florets for myself, and the result was … a marked increase in energy. Energy enough to function once more, and not drag my feet after me. Do I still want to eat mainly meat, fish and dairy? Absolutely. But I have discovered, adding just a few vegetables, markedly increased my energy, that is, restored to a more sufficient degree, my vitality. Why this is, I don’t know. I was also experiencing stomach pains from constipation, and when I added the broccoli, it helped. At least, those pains (from a lot of trapped wind is my current suspicion) went away. So … I’m currently looking at eating in a way that leaves me with both benefits, and energy. To the extent it is possible whilst also taking Tamoxifen (an estrogen blocker).

(Bob M) #5

One thing I don’t think anyone has a good idea on is the biome. Whereas you seem to need vegetables, I tend to have to eat vegetables that are fully cooked, and cooked well, otherwise I get digestive issues. And I can go eating very few vegetables without constipation.

I used to think discussions of the biome were garbage, as if you do reading in this area, a lot of it is conflicting. But then I listened to a few podcasts where people cured certain diseases…by working on their biome. And I started doing things like drinking raw milk (supposedly beneficial to the biome), and I think it’s helped.

I still can’t make sense of it though, like in the case where some people are benefited by eating vegetables, and others are not. What is the difference? I don’t have a good handle on it.

#6

Hi Bob. I definitely believe the biome is important, but that, as you write, there is just so much conflicting information regarding this that it becomes information overload when we try to dip into it.

I think I ventured into the carnivore WOE mostly because of the simplicity and a liking of those foods. But also because on carnivore, or on a WOE very close to it, I appear a lot less stressed, so it has a calming effect. Unfortunately, it also depleted my energy levels. So I have reinstated almonds and broccoli, and may also add green beans and cauliflower, to see what happens with both my brainfog, inflammation and energy levels. Unfortunately it’s tricky to tell because I am on a medication that causes these sort of side effects very commonly. I remember when I first started keto that the relief from my joint and body aches as well as my lipoedema pains was immense. It may have been the effect of ketosis that was behind that relief. I also lost weight. But after a while on carnivore, I noticed certain aches (side effects from Tamoxifen probably) returning. And a steady decrease in energy, although I love the carnivore foods, who wouldn’t love those foods if they could get away with it. It does seem to me therefore the physical benefits were greater when I was doing keto as opposed to carnivore, except for the calmness of mind, the carnivore WOE does perpetually tempt me in that aspect, I definitely experience less stress on the carnivore WOE.

I also think I could have issues with my biome. A glass of milk or a tub of yogurt makes me ill, gives me headaches, makes me sluggish, but cheese, cream and butter my body seems to tolerate fine. I did try kefir once, I think it was goat kefir, which I purchased over the internet. It made me ill. I am toying with the idea now of trying raw milk, as there is a local farm that sells it, to see if my body will assimilate that better. But like you Bob, the science just begins to appear to me after trying to dip in my toes, like a pool of conflicting (to an exhaustive degree) information.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #7

Well, for one thing, substituting vegetables for highly-processed foods is probably going to help the entire body, and the biome along with it. The question is whether vegetables benefit those of us on a ketogenic diet, and if so, how much.

(Joey) #8

Putting aside the “fun” part, separating certain foods from each other is a rather ancient idea.

The Jewish laws of kashrut (“kosher”) require separating meat and dairy into separate meals, using separate utensils, pots, etc.

The original rationale for doing so stems from the commandment to treat animals humanely (e.g., “You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk”/Deuteronomy).

And of course, when it comes to eating, there’s a long list of “clean” vs “unclean” animals in nearby passages - which seem to reflect health and food safety concerns of the times.

Whether philosophic or metabolic, humanity continues to wrestle with our food prep. :peace_symbol:

#9

I think humanity will wrestle with food and nutrition until the end of days.

I have begun to eat food now separately too, as an experiment to see if I can increase my energy levels and diminish most of my daily fatigue. It may of course do nothing. Perhaps anti-nutrients aren’t even as bad as some make them out to be, but it’s something to try.

(Joey) #10

Don’t rule out the placebo effect … it’s both real and powerful and could make a meaningful difference in your perceived energy level.

If one could self-prescribe a placebo I certainly would. Unfortunately, someone else needs to do it for us. :pill:

#11

Yes, faith can move mountains … Whether it’s faith in God, or faith in a placebo, in this modern world of science there is a shift from spiritual faith to that of the science. It’s amazing how many people believe everything written in the press, for example. So in addition to humanity being symptomatic, humanity is also incredibly impressionable.

(Bob M) #12

I think the answer to this is: maybe? For some but not others? :wink:

(Bob M) #13

There was a podcast I was listening to where two people were describing how curing their biome helped them (and others).

This is one:

This is another:

#14

I think, again, this is incredibly individual. Some on a ketogenic WOE may require fiber and some may not, I believe I do. So my choice of vegetables would be broccoli, cauliflower, green beans, and occasionally mushrooms, all of which my body seems to tolerate well. For some, it might be more to do with texture and mouthfeel, and that they enjoy a variety of colours. And if there are no adverse effects, even if no apparent benefits, then merely because people enjoy these vegetables and other plant foods such as nuts and berries, and these whole foods bring them joy, they are still beneficial?

#15

I think that’s right :slight_smile: Very individual, both regarding the one in question and the individual group of vegs :wink: There are amounts too.
Me eating one thin slice of juicy, crunchy raddish easily have a noticeable good effect on my mental health while I can’t imagine it would have any detrimental effect on me… Good deal. And it’s me, I am aware that being very, very close to carnivore is what my body likes best. It’s not even too hard if I have some tiny breaks here and there…

Dairy is similar (and I need way more of them than of plants). Each to their own.

#16

Hi Shinita, I agree, it’s all so individual. I am somewhat similar to you in that my body too prefers being really, really close to carnivore. But due to my body requiring fiber, I have also begun eating cruciferous vegetables, and my body has so far not objected to this. I have also begun eating every food separately to avoid anti-nutrients, although I still take my coffee with my cream (that heavely combination is my heroin). The funny thing is without cream I probably wouldn’t bother with coffee. Even though coffee does seem to perk me up, it’s flavour when plain is unpalatable for me.

(Bob M) #17

While I do drink coffee black when fasting, to me, even a tiny amount of cream in coffee makes it better. Though, oddly, I drink tea without cream…not sure why.

If you have time, listen to part 97 of Peak Human. That lady had some severe issues, and she cured them by working on her biome. (In a VERY restrictive way, one I’m not sure many could do.)

#18

I get it, that’s why I put at least eggs in my coffee. It’s easier to use cream or milk though…
I can drink black coffee if I really must, sometimes I do that if I use coffee as medicine… But it’s not so nice.

#19

Why is it odd? Of course one drinks tea alone, that’s the right way. Except strong ones with much whatsit acid like Assam, that actually got better with a drop of milk, it was so odd, tea and dairy, who does that? :smiley: Englishmen, yep but they are so far from here :smiley:
Originally I was a pitiful thing, using sugar and lemon in some bland tea… But as a young adult I learned and I drink tea alone since then… Eventually I did that even with the most boring ones. I drink too much tea to use proper tea for all, sometimes it’s just hydration and warmth, a super weak things from cheap filters do the trick…

Never tried tea with CREAM, is that a thing somewhere?

#20

Hi Bob, I’ll give the podcasts a listen when I have the time. The thing is though, I can’t be doing restrictive WOEs. Keto is fine of course, and also eating like a carnivore on some days, but I couldn’t do carnivore though I love the food entirely all the time because (1) My energy suffered. (2) I had constipation issues, which adding back fiber solved.

The energy issue is majorly important as I have two little very active boys to look after, so I’ll take all the energy I can get, lol. It would be different if I was retired, or if my children were older, and I had time and opportunity to eat like a carnivore, and allow for adaptation and healing time and meanwhile struggling with insufficient energy levels. Being a busy stay at home mum that time isn’t now. And I realise there is no optimal state of health, it doesn’t exist, and perhaps life is too short to persistantly and perpetually persue it.

I have been reading Amber O Hearn’s book which I find fascinating, and understand that carnivore for her was about relief from a serious mental disorder. I can only imagine what it would be like to have been in Amber O Hearn’s shoes, before she eliminated all plants. She found the holy grail for her ailments. She does also write about how carnivore can help a myriad conditions and ailments. I have no doubt, for some people, carnivore can work really well.

I embarked on a ketogenic WOE to combat lipoedema. I am also dealing with the aftermath of cancer treatment and the current side effects of Tamoxifen (an estrogen blocker) and subsequent fatigue from the toll all that has taken on my body. I don’t find, however, my body intolerant to plants, or that they create detrimental effects, physically or mentally. In fact, adding just a few, I find, increases my energy. And I still believe the calming effect of carnivore therefore will persist on keto. See, my plan is not to cram as many carbs into my WOE as I possibly can whilst still remaining keto. I will be adding just a few vegetables (and only one kind a day, say broccoli or cauliflower, cabbage or green beans) berries and nuts (not everyday).

Amber O Hearn in her book included a description from a person, William Banting’s low-carb diet in 1864. I could cut and paste it later, but not now. And the way he ate followed neither the rainbow plate idea of the plant world nor the carnivore idea to only consume meat. William Banting ate mainly meat, fowl and fish, with only small quantities of vegetables and other carbs (a rusk or a piece of toast). Now in my country Norway at least I know my ancestors would have eaten also mainly meat, fowl and fish, but would also have grown a few vegetables and had access to seasonal fruits and berries. I think the ideal thing would be eating seasonally, so a few plums, pears and apples say in the autumn (locally sourced), some berries in the summertime, and mainly meat, fowl and fish in the wintertime.

Now there’s no doubt keto has improved my quality of life. My inflammation has gone down, my lipoedema condition has improved. Though the fatigue issue is still there. And it may well be a ketogenic WOE will not cure my lipoedema though it may prevent progression. But that I am feeling so much better than on my HC/LF WOE is a good indicator I’m on the right path here.

I have slowly since starting my keto journey become more and more fascinated by the carnivorous world. And it is unfortunate carni for me resulted in lower energy. I do know my body prefers a WOE very close to carnivore, but will also not object to a few plants, and I am against naming a WOE or categorising a WOE, other than call it ketogenic. Dr. Paul Saladino added back in fruit and honey (I assume raw, not the sugary junk in the supermarked) and received a lot of criticism for this. But it is all about one’s body in the end and what works for each of us as individuals. Though I would never proclaim like Dr. Saladino and the other youtube doctors that I had found the solution for everyone and all.