Discussion of dietary cholesterol and cardiovascular disease

#21

It certainly seems to be so.

(Chuck) #22

Yes the drug companies are after the almighty dollar and they don’t care who they hurt. While I understand the cost of medical school and the cost of having a medical clinic. So many doctors and even hospitals are being paid to prescribe drugs to patients that I believe aren’t even needed. I use the local VA clinic, and my doctor is a veteran that started as a Navy corpsman and worked his way to being a nurse practitioner then to a full MD. We have had some interesting conversations about drugs, drug companies and the drug industry’s influence over politicians and political parties and government policy. It is all a scam with the only losers being the patients.

(Bob M) #23

One thing I wanted to say about Lp(a), is that it MIGHT be that it’s an accelerant. In other words, if you’re protecting your endothelium, Lp(a) does not cause atherosclerosis. By contrast, if you’re not protecting your endothelium, people with higher Lp(a) could have higher atherosclerosis.

I say this because there are quite a few studies showing faster atherosclerosis with higher LP(a), and it’s the only thing that makes sense to me. (Genetics could also be involved, such as people with FH have factors other than LDL that cause a problem, but I haven’t looked into this.)

(Peter - Don't Fear the Fat ) #24

It’s not withdrawn because according to the ‘Experts’ and NHS, type 2 is not curable.
I still get called up for T2 eye tests etc for the same reason.
They don’t acknowledge our achievements or philosophy

(Jenna Ericson) #25

Statins are an interesting topic. I know there is an argument that everyone should take them to keep LDL as low as possible, since it is causally linked to heart disease. My understanding is that the function of LDL would be to transport fat that is either a remnant from dietary intake or from the liver, and deposit it into peripheral cells. Conventional medicine would say this form of transport is not necessary, but a lot of that is still based on the assumption that we are eating high carb diets. Also, I think humans are the only species that makes apoB100, which is the lipoprotein that allows LDL to enter cells. This was probably an advantageous adaptation at one point due to food scarcity. I would be hesitant to interfere with any process of fat transport on a high fat diet, but stopping the statin would probably raise cholesterol levels. I think there are plenty of other mechanisms for fat utilization that may be healthier, and compensate for the lack of LDL.

(Chuck) #26

Take a look at the side effects of satin drugs. I can say that since I quit taking the drug I have had less pains .

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-cholesterol/in-depth/statin-side-effects/art-20046013

(Jenna Ericson) #27

That makes sense! That article is interesting and I think helped me understand why the muscle soreness may be happening. It said that it very rare, extreme cases statins can cause life threatening damage to muscles called rhabdomyolysis. Anyone who does crossfit probably knows this term because it’s when you breakdown so much muscle for use as energy that it becomes toxic to your organs. This probably means that people experiencing muscle soreness are used to utilizing fat transported by LDL at the site of the muscle. Since LDL production and utilization is down regulated by statins your muscles would demand glucose, and if your liver can’t supply it, you end up scavenging it at the source.

#28

Half the time I forget to even take the atorvastatin 20mg, because I take it at night and not with other meds or supplements.

The only drug I’m careful to take daily is Ramipril 2.5mg (1 in the morning) for managing elevated blood pressure. My levels are fine now.

But to be honest, my BP has always been borderline high even when being younger and very active doing long distance runs and forced marches and such.

I think I get anxious in a surgery, and it doesn’t help when you get stabbed in the arm by an unskilled nurse with a needle for bloods several times right before they take your BP.
I proved this ‘white coat syndrome’ by buying my own BP monitor and testing at home- the practice nurse and GP are now happy for me to chill at home before taking and recording my readings now.
Which are OK.

As long as my cholesterol and lipids results remain in range I’m not going to fret too much about it.

Thanks for the info!

#29

Hey Chuck.

Where I live in the UK we don’t pay (directly anyway, maybe indirectly through taxes funding NHS) for prescription drugs, and seeing as I’m not experiencing any negative side effects, my cholesterol is fine, and I’m not down any money…maybe I should just keep taking them? (When I remember to!)
What do you think?

(Chuck) #30

It is still a chemical compound that is foreign to our bodies, and while you may not now be noticing any reaction to the chemicals it could very well lead to diseases in your future. We never know for sure. And the research and analysis are done in so short of a timeframe that we can’t really predict what could happen. I am doing my best to detox my body from what laboratory chemicals that I can.
It may be too little too late but at least I am working to do what I can to eat only real food and stay away from chemical products .

#31

Good point.

I think what I’ll do is just stop ordering the repeat (28 days) prescription for the statins, and when the GP (General Practitioner Dr., primary care…not sure what they are called in US?) or practice nurse notices I’ll just ask for bloods to be taken and monitored every 6 months for a year.
Say, three blood tests (start, 6 month, year), and then check it annually after that.

Yep, that’s my plan, executive decision taken :wink:

Thanks.

(Chuck) #32

I use my veteran’s benefits, and go to the Local VA clinic, I am a disabled veteran with a hearing loss disability. I get my hearing aids, and all of my medications as a benefit but that doesn’t mean that I am not proactive at not wanting to not need the prescriptions drugs. I also have macular degeneration and have to take vitamin supplements to slow the progression of my macular degeneration. My bigs worry is losing my hearing and eyesight.

#33

Hope you’re OK with avoiding that.

And thanks for your service.

(Jenna Ericson) #34

I’m not sure I’d go off the Ramipril or at least taper off slowly. As an ACE inhibitor it decreases the formation of angiotensin II, a [vasoconstrictor]. This causes an up regulation of ACE2 receptors, which are the binding sites for signaling changes in blood pressure. If you were to stop taking it you may make too much angiotensin II, and because you now have more receptors, your blood pressure could go too high. I would think the number of receptors would down-regulate over time if you tapered off slowly. Usually any drug that decrease the production of something in the body would up-regulate receptors for it as the natural way of counteracting what nature intended.

The reason people taking ACE inhibitors were said to have a higher risk from COVID is because the virus binds to those ACE2 receptors, and someone on an ACE inhibitor has more of them.

#35

Quite. Still very essential.

I take it you meant ‘myelin sheaths’, is what I know them as, as in essential for neurones electrical signalling etc. etc. I have personal experience of when these sheaths fail:

My father, after the gullit cancer operation and radotherapy remission, poor soul also suffered from a mystery illness known as Guillain Barre syndrome. His immune system basically attacked his motor neurones first and all nerves later, yet with his mind remaining ‘awake.’

Numbness, speech slurring, then respiratory problems…straight to intensive care after a while.
Gradually got worse, was communicating with scribbled writing for a while, then he had to have a tracheostomy, before induced coma. He must have been scared sh*tless and helpless.

He got through it, but the drugs he was under…it must have been morphine based; when he started getting motor function back (still intubated) he was scribbling notes that aliens were experimenting on him and get him out of there- they wouldn’t let him sleep.

Of course, that’s what ICU staff do when they’re getting a patient back, checking vitals and encouraging lucidity of what is going on…but my dad was tripping his bollox off.

So, I’ll keep my cholesterol and myelin sheaths, thank you sir!

Any lipid experts here?
#36

You sound like a pharmacologist/pharmacist…or a doc that reads up on drug advances!
I mean that in a good way.

No, that’s not what I meant sorry, I meant that I will keep taking the Ramipril, because I agree probably it’s the only thing they’ve prescribed me worth taking…but I will phase out the statins and check my bloods for any adverse cholesterol/lipid levels.

Cheers!

(KM) #37

I agree, in a broader sense. We are scavengers by nature, our bodies put to use whatever they can. And sometimes that’s not something we should be using. Building a body using the wrong things is like building a house using jelly beans. It looks great … til it rains.

(Peter - Don't Fear the Fat ) #38

Brilliant observation. That’s exactly what we are now I think of it!
And explains our close association with dogs.
Not Many creatures with such a broad range of possible food sources.

(B Creighton) #39

Basically all drugs have side effects. One of the main things that happens with statins is that they suppress CoQ10 levels since the body makes CoQ10 along the same chemical pathway statins work on to suppress cholesterol, which is going to affect everything that CoQ10 is used for. So, if you are going to take a statin you need to supplement with CoQ10 or you will have symtoms of deficiency.

Why would we want to suppress something our bodies naturally makes ie cholesterol? Our bodies are making it, because we need it. I think the statins do have an effect on CVD somewhat, but that I believe is only because there is less LDL to oxidize, so the overall effect on CVD improves. I would rather stop the oxidation of my cholesterol, than suppress a nutrient which my body needs and is going to suppress my testosterone levels etc.

Our medicine started to treat acute infections, diseases, injuries etc, and has grown quite good at it. It has saved many lives. But, with the advent of processed foods, chronic metabolic diseases have skyrocketed, and the pharmaceutical companies haven’t minded creating drugs to “manage” these diseases on a chronic basis. These drugs certainly aren’t cures, and they make the companies lots of money on a “chronic” basis.

I don’t know that it is a “scam.” I think the intentions were at least originally to help people, but they certainly don’t seem interested in teaching the public the true cause of their chronic diseases, and how to reverse them. That is kind of the fault of the public at large for falling into the trap of wanting the dopamine hit processed foods provide I think. Anyway, we have come to expect far too much from these drugs, when it seems the only real cure is to change our diet back to whole, fresh foods. The more man messes with foods, it seems the more problems we have created. Rather then to take a drug like statins on a chronic basis, I am changing the way I buy, store and cook foods, and keeping track of my oxLDL levels. I avoid not only processed carbs, but processed fats, and learning how to avoid foods that are oxidized or become easily oxidized. I want the essential polyunsaturated fats from salmon, but these fats are easily oxidized, and so I now buy filets that are essentially vacuum packed, and cook them on low heat. Hopefully, new habits like these will keep me off the operating table. The only way the body has to get these fats where they are needed is by transporting them in LDL particles. So, if they are oxidized, I believe they can damage the ApoB protein shell of the LDL. So, I am trying to address that rather than address CVD later through the chronic use of some drug. I don’t know that drugs will ever be able to reverse damage we do to ourselves on a chronic basis. As much as the drug companies don’t mind the profits, I don’t feel it is all their fault. They are just reacting to needs our food system has created.

(Chuck) #40

I moved a way from cities and towns so I can grow as much as possible and I made friends with as many local farmers as possible so I can get fresh produce, meat, milk and eggs. I grew up on a farm and have always believed in eating off the land as much as possible. Even when I lived in the city so I could work and get to work without having to drive for hours each way, I sought out farmers markets and did my best to only buy from the small farmers. It surely isn’t the cheapest way to eat unless you factor in being as healthy as possible.