Different protein intakes

#1

I read you should eat moderate protein, like .8 per kg which would be like 32 g for me on other websites. Yet on this board I read a gram per lean body mass which would be at least twice that I think. I am confused

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #2

The recommendation of 0.8 g protein/kg lean body mass/day is intended as the absolute minimum, to replace the average daily nitrogen loss everyone experiences. It is based on the protein equivalent of the average daily nitrogen loss measured in several thousand study participants.

The recommendation on this site and elsewhere is to eat in the range of 1.0-1.5 g/kg, which is much better suited to most people’s needs. This is intended not only to replace lost nitrogen, but to also make amino acids available for meeting the body’s structural needs. Body builders might even consider going as high as 2.0 g/kg. Some researchers believe we have an instinct for how much protein to eat, so if you find yourself feeling that you need more, listen to your body. Once you feel you are getting enough protein, you can add enough fat to satisfy your hunger. (All of this assumes you are keeping your carbohydrate intake to a minimum, of course.)

As a rule of thumb, meats are generally one-quarter protein by weight. So, for example, if I weigh 100 kg, and 30% of that is fat, I want to eat 70-105 g of protein, which comes to 280-420 g (10-15 ounces) of meat.

#3

I’d don’t take any recommendation based on total body weight seriously. It’s ridiculous to think that someone that is 100 pounds overweight needs any more protein because of the additional fat they are carrying. They may not even need the amount of protein that would be based on their lean body mass – as they lose weight, they’d need less muscle tissue to carry around less weight.

But that perspective comes from an even more extreme weight – I was about 400 pounds overweight.

The trouble with “rules of thumb” is that they usually only give good approximations within a (sometimes narrow) range and are next to useless at extremes.

(Bob M) #4

Not to mention that, where I live, the lean beef roasts are almost always on sale. If you eat a pound of meat at a sitting, which is what I do, you can easily shoot past the recommendations.

You could eat less meat and add fat, but I always thought that wasn’t a “whole food” strategy. It also becomes difficult to add “fat”, at least for me. I’m not a fan of liquid fats, even olive oil, which I do use but sparingly. I have added fats in the past, like suet, but they are tricky. Too much, and my stomach gets upset.

I tend toward just eating “meat”, and letting the fat and protein lie wherever they lie. Concentrate on eating beef, and you’re not going to be deficient in protein.

(Allie) #5

Eat whatever your body (appetite) needs to function its best, I don’t limit at all, more protein than fat.
Think I would actually die if I was limited to 32g each day… if I used the 0.8g per KG it would put me at around 45g, no way is that ever going to be enough, even if I went with the amounts mentioned by @PaulL, that wouldn’t be anywhere near enough for me.

#6

As the others already wrote the 0.8 is for the absolute minimum, it’s not the right, ideal amount to have… Anyway, we need other nutrients, a bite of meat in a sea of pure fat hardly could give that to us…

What I am familiar with is 1-2g/kg for LBM, more like 1.5-2 for cutting… :smiley: I agree with that even though I can’t keep my protein intake that low… But until my body is fine with my (just a bit) higher average and my 3-4g/kg days feel pretty great, who am I to force myself to eat even less protein? I already do what I can, I just can’t go lower, I miss protein, I get hungry… I can eat fattier meat but it’s not as satiating so I just eat way too many calories and not any less protein.

I trust my own body.

(My protein intake is between 80-220g very nearly always. But it’s very, very rare that my body accepts it below 120g, I just get hungry at midnight and eat more then. I am a not muscular short woman so I suppose 90g is enough for me. But I just can’t stay that low.
I only could do it when I tried to eat plant-based low-carb for 5 days but if I did it now, I would be way over 100g as I have gluten now and that’s satiating and not too carby.
So I eat high protein on all woe. It’s what I always did and needed. So nope, I am strongly disagree that you must stay below 2g/kg, no matter what. Above works for me and I can’t go below but I probably would feel miserable there.)

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #7

So I guess that lets out gravy on the meat and cheese sauce on the veggies. Too bad! I love 'em!

Though I have to admit that the idea of a “whole food strategy” is very appealing.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #8

As Richard likes to say, our first dogma is “Show me the science,” but our second dogma is, "Find what works for you."

#9

Thanks for the replies. It makes me feel better because everywhere on the internet makes it sound like you’re going to get protein poisoning and damage your liver if you eat over 60g. I do feel like my body is asking for more than I am currently eating.

I eat olive oil because I need more fat with my mackerel. I prefer to eat the actual olives but I have a lot of bloating since my stomach surgery and I think it’s best to just eat liquid fat than eating a whole lot more olives. The vinegar also starts to bother me. I haven’t eaten meat in a long time but when I did I ate every dripping that came with it, whether it was steak or chicken. My mom and I had to make our chicken separately because she didn’t like the drippings without flour (she says it needed it to cut the grease). Aside from not wanting the flour, I thought it had a lot more flavor without it.

I have reflux and I seem to do best with actual animal fat. Gross as it looks to people I drink all the oil in the mackerel cans. But I’m pretty sure it looked gross as well when I was cutting the huge tallow chunks off the grass fed steaks and put them on toothpicks over the grill to eat (they were such that the meat was lean but there was a big chunk of fat at the end). It came in my natural instincts to be this way, it’s not just a keto thing. I have the least bloating and reflux with animal fat. This doesn’t include butter however. Butter. dairy and coconut oil seem to make it worse. The olive oil doesn’t make it too bad, but it seems to make the digestion worse. Avocado bloats me if I eat too much of it. I’m kind of in a stuck situation. I loved cheese and am sad I can’t eat it without difficulty anymore. Nuts are really hard and I’m trying to stay away from peanut butter in an attempt to heal my gut. I’m getting really frustrated.

#10

32g will guarantee loss of muscle mass, the normal go-to is 1g/lb of body weight which gives almost everybody a good amount with some built in wiggle room. When you’re obese, going by muscle mass is better, but even then most people will very much underestimate their muscle mass. Obese people have a LOT more muscle than they think they do.

When losing a ton of fat, you’re going to lose muscle mass either way, but you want to minimize it as much as possible, once that fat comes off you want something under there! Aside from physically looking better, higher muscle mass means higher TDEE, and you don’t want that lower than it needs to be. That’s a recipe for a fat loss stall you go through hell to get around.

#11

remember also where your protein comes from is a key factor to the body also.

animal meat proteins trump all the time any plant cause of the balanced nutrients/vits/minerals supplied by that ‘whatever protein’ intake you are using. Animal gives all the body requires, veg proteins leaves a body less than and maybe needing supps and more for best thriving.

which is why those stricter plant protein people, like bean eating or seed eating people won’t ever get the ‘entire vit/mineral load’ they need from veg only so…real animal proteins give tons and tons more then any veg protein one might rely on so??

and then agree with posts from above on kinda what you ‘need’ if animal protein is used. You need more animal protein then one ever thinks cause it is the best load bearing support for the entire body one can eat :slight_smile: but when we ‘play the manipulataion game’ all bets are off on how well you do on what you eat and where ya eat it from in a way. Very personal at that point.

#12

Wow, you visits some super weird places then. The hobby bodybuilders never told me that :smiley: Well when I was a newbie ketoer several years ago, the place I frequented was all about adequate protein (still not 0.8) and I really tried to eat only that little and failed basically every day. I only could do it with some special plant-based diet where I avoid protein rich plants…
But no matter how I look at it… My body’s reply, experiences of many people, how normally an omnivore mammal eats… A tiny protein intake makes no sense and a higher one isn’t necessarily bad.
But the this forum came and @PaulL brought the “no more than 3.3g/kg protein” info… Of course, there is an individual factor so if someone clearly experience problem, they should change… But for a normal one, too high protein is hard to reach.
And just tell to carnivores to live on a few bites of meat because more is bad :smiley: That’s obviously nonsense. I never ever ever ever ate <60g protein and never experienced any problem from it. And looking at science, no wonder I didn’t.

Those are important. Unless your body has some weird desires that results in problems, listen to these :slight_smile: I always favored fat, ate high-fat all my life, it’s one of the very few fixed things in my diet, I don’t have any other option. Fortunately it goes very well with the very low-carb preference of my body…

We can eat so many different ways even on keto. Do what works best for you :slight_smile:
It’s sad you can’t eat some items you like but do the most from the options left…

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #13

It’s easy to overdo protein supplements, but someone eating real meat is not likely to exceed the protein limit. There was a famous study of overfeeding years ago, in which one of the participants broke down in tears, because he couldn’t face one more pork chop.

The risk of too much protein comes from the fact that the body does not store amino acids, so they have to be deaminated and dealt with. The nitrogen from removing the ammonyl group gets put into the uric acid cycle, which can handle quite a bit, but once it gets overwhelmed, ammonia toxicity becomes a serious risk.

So if you smell ammonia on your breath, or people notice the smell in your perspiration, cut back on the protein intake.

#14

WHAT? hmmm

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #15

Yes. Overwhelming the uric acid cycle is a thing. Do a forum search on “ammonia,” and you should find Richard’s post in which he explained what happens and calculated the protein limit. I believe it was 3.2 g/kg LBM.

Again, as I said, it’s very difficult to eat that much protein, especially when eating to satiety and not beyond.

#16

I definitely thought about getting it from normal food. Sometimes I even forget some people supplement it. I can’t even keep my intake only adequate… But yes, the smarter hobby bodybuilders often taught the silly boys who ate protein in excessive amounts even without steroids so it was only a burden for their bodies. But all proper sites warned them about it. And then some sites were too careful and advised some too low protein intake for women (calories too when cutting)…

There are good info out there but not only that so one needs to be very careful.

#17

ok I believe you in that the OP is not eating to this level to produce this response

#18

I would like to add I am trying to GAIN weight as well as muscle. I just want to to do it in the right proportions and not cause any problems. I will definitely up the protein.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #19

Not sure what you mean by “gain weight as well as muscle.” Increasing your muscle will add to your weight. Or by “weight” do you mean fat mass?

Gaining lean mass means eating a bit extra protein, plus enough fat to fuel the growth. Adding fat is easiest done by eating carbohydrate.

#20

The problem is I don’t feel good eating carbs. I desperately need to gain weight though. Please don’t tell me to get professional help. I’ver had all the professional help I can get and it hasn’t helped.

I will try to explain my situation. In my early 20’s I developed gastritis and cut fruit and many things out of my diet. Unintentionally I ended up on a keto diet. I didn’t eat many carbs and when I did it was in whole food form (sweet potato, or red potatoes with more butter than potato at dinner) I have always felt better with more fat and moderate protein. Eventually my weight got too low. I went to a hospital that turned out to be more of a mental institution in Denver, CO. I was immediately certified for 3 months. I was forced to drink apple ensure (40g sugar per bottle) white breads, graham crackers etc, rice Krispy treats sugary yogurts. On top of this I was on glucerna tube feed 24/7 that made my liver enzymes go over 200. I was not allowed outdoors. My body was in shock. All this I could have recovered from except that they had an accident with feeding tube. It perforated my digestive tract, and they found free air in my abdomen. They did a major surgery.

Now I am left with many problems which make eating difficult. I need loads of magnesium rich food and Senna tea to make things go through me since this surgery. I don’t know if it’s adhesions or nerve damage but things don’t work like they used to. However, I still mentally don’t feel well on carbs. I need a diet that will digest well, and is high in fat and very low in carb. I would like it to be natural, whole food. The keto diet caused me to lose weight, I need to turn it around to help me gain weight.