December 2019 - IF/EF Chat Thread (All Welcome)

fasting
(Bob M) #21

I listen to podcasts to and from work (books, too). I have heard so many opinions on this. Some people are convinced that ANY calories whatsoever stops autophagy. Others are more reasonable. I have to believe in the more reasonable people. It just doesn’t make sense that there’s a simple “you’ve had 1 calorie, no autophagy for you!” line. That’s not the way the body works.

I have no problem if people wanting to maximize autophagy quit coffee or tea or whatever.

For me, I re-injured my shoulders (one has torn rotator cuff that’s been repaired, one has torn rotator cuff that’s not been repaired) doing something, and they are getting better, but slowly. So, this fast is an effort to help them, along with the bone broth.

If you’re already doing all that, then that seems like that’s the best you can do, from my limited knowledge. What you outline seems like the best path. If you could add red light therapy…:grinning:

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #22

Gosh one more thing to spend $$ on. I have been intending to research this. I need to up my research game.

(Bob M) #23

They are super expensive. I’ve listened to multiple podcasts about this, but when I went to buy them, they were too expensive for me.

(Justin Jordan) #24

My goal in December is to do three 36 hour* fasts a week. More or less alternate daily fasts.

Looking back at my records, I find that two fasts a week seems more sustainable, so this is more a personal challenge than anything else.

*More like 40ish, but it’s always at least 36

(KCKO, KCFO 🥥) #25

Dang, I missed that bit about the protein. I just got myself to doing black coffee/water only IFing. Guess I will have work a little harder if I want some strict autophagy.

My plan to do ADF got broken, so it is OMAD instead. Appling the “Any fast is a good one” rule and moving on with life.

(Bob M) #26

I think two 36 hour fasts a week is plenty. I know that Dr. Fung’s group advocates three per week, but I personally think that’s crazy. And I’d really like to see a study of these people’s basal metabolic rate over time. With 3x36 or 3x42 fasts per week, I don’t think it’s possible to feast enough to where you don’t get a BMR slowdown.

(back and doublin' down) #27

I’m at 39 and feeling so good I may just cruise all the way to evening and only do one meal today, maybe eat tomorrow too and then do another longer rather than 3 42hr fasts this week. Some of that “change it up” thinking. I am fasting for weight loss and it’d be easy to get carried away maybe…

…and this is where I fear getting carried away. Yet, I’ve heard it said that fasting isn’t the cause of BMR slowdown as much as deficient eating and I am quite good at Feasting! Maybe it really does depend on one’s body composition and more. I’ve got plenty of fat for my body to feast on when I’m not feasting myself.

(Bob M) #28

Dr. Fung and his group could be totally correct. It’s just that when I try to do even 2x36/week, I can’t do it. I can’t eat enough in half a day to not begin to get really cold, so cold I have to stop fasting. I’m trying a 4.5 day fast this week, but that’s only because I did not do that much work around the house this past weekend, and did not exercise as much as I normally do and ate more than I normally would.

However, I’m also down 60+ pounds from where I started. And when I started fasting (about 30+ pounds ago), I was able to do more fasting. Now, I have a harder time.

To me, getting cold is an indication of BMR slow down, though I could be wrong.

(Justin Jordan) #29

I go through periods where I track my food intake (with the caveat that fuzziness is built into any tracking) and as far as I can tell, fasting and caloric restriction don’t appear to have much affect on the calories I’m burning beyond what you’d expect from the actual weight loss.

I’m fairly confident about the calorie restriction part, the fasting part is less robust. But that’s an N=1 kind of thing. I have a suspicion people worry about metabolic slowdown more than is usually warranted, but then…I would.

(back and doublin' down) #30

I’m pretty sure my years of yo-yo dieting destroyed my metabolism. And hopeful that the feasting/fasting thing is gradually rebuilding metabolic flexibility. If my summer experience is any indication, it’s working. There were carby weekends, carby meals out, some sugars, but no gains. And the body kept reshaping. Now that my hiking/backpacking season is over, less activity, so back to a stricter keto/fasting routine that is moving the scale down again as well.

Decided to keep fasting. I’d have to drive home (albeit only 4 min away) and cook something, or I can stay here and work on documentation and stay busy. I’ll eat well tonight, maybe tomorrow too, and then fast Thursday into Friday evening again. Feels both doable and different enough to convince myself I’m ‘shaking it up.’

(back and doublin' down) #31

…and, I’m still fasting. Didn’t get home until almost 7pm and didn’t want to eat without a few hours before bed. No pain, no stomach growls, no hunger.

KCFO

(Bob M) #32

For me, I can get so cold that I can’t touch my own hands. As soon as I eat, it goes away. I am a more complex case, as I have heart failure and also take drugs for those, both of which are known to cause cold extremities.

Having said that, I find that if I work a ton on my house over the weekend, running up and down stairs for instance, I cannot fast on Monday. That is, I can’t make it the whole day. Meanwhile, I did a lot less this holiday weekend and ate more and now have made it two days.

Also, I was getting so cold for a while that what cured it was ceasing to fast and eating 2 meals a day. After a while of that, I was able to restart fasting.

And there are 2 types of cold for me. (1) The “whole body” cold where you have to have extra clothes on, which I think is a normal response to fasting. (2) The “holy crap my hands are cold!” type of cold, where I cannot touch my own hands. I know that if I’m getting (2) at all, that’s not a good sign, and I usually bail on fasting. If it’s (1), I plow through unless something else comes up.

I also experienced (2) more when fasting shorter periods more often, rather than longer fasts spread apart. And eating immediately cures it.

If I could figure out how to measure my BMR, I would do it.

Anyway, I’m at 89 blood, 0.8 ketones this morning. 0.8 is high for me. I’m also getting up at 4am. Ugh.

(Bob M) #33

56/60 hours into my fast and my blood pressure was only 99/66. Retook and got 102/64. Hmm…

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #34

This is good, right? Is this low for you Bob?

(back and doublin' down) #35

That does seem low. Wonder if that too contributes to your being super cold? Fasting had me up at 4am too, saw your post then. Opted for a hot soak under the stars with a cup of coffee.

My heart rate definitely is slower when I’m fasting. And I suspect my blood pressure drops as well just by how I’m feeling (don’t have a cuff). I’m at 59 hrs, will break at lunch today. Otherwise, I’d need to sail all the way to Sunday in order to be home for that fast breaking digestive response nonsense.

(Bob M) #36

Hi Eric, I get concerned when systolic (the top number) is less than 100. In the past, I’ve had to stop fasting because I was getting dizzy when I stood. That was not the case (did not get dizzy) this morning, however. Here are some values for you (heart rate, then systolic, diastolic, time:

image

I had to stop fasting (made 68(?) hours or so), due to my stomach getting “sick” and not going away. I tried more water, some electrolytes, everything I could think of, and nothing helped. I only had canned fish at work, though, so I ate a fish “salad” with fish, vinegar, and olive oil.

@Paendora About your heart rate, I have a type of heart failure (diagnosed 6.5 years ago), and fasting, even just 36 hours, really calms my heart. I don’t believe it’s ketones (multiple studies indicate the failing heart likes ketones), as after 6 years low carb, my blood ketones are always low. They do get higher when fasting, but it’s not as if they jump tremendously. I’m not sure what it is, but something occurs when fasting for a while that calms my heart.

I also like to stop in the morning, as I also have disgestive issues after fasting. I’m later (it’s about 1pm now) than I’d like, but I felt sick to my stomach for some reason.

(back and doublin' down) #37

I’m glad you listened to your body. No fasting record or goal is worth compromising our overall health.

That’s some weirdness about my heart rate. Your drop in blood pressure felt similar too. I have no diagnosed heart problems, but I do have a paranoid PCP who THINKS I will.

Maybe your ketones register low because your body has become so adapt at using them so they aren’t hanging out in the blood stream?

(Justin Jordan) #38

When I fast, I reallllllly have to keep on top of sodium or my blood pressure will get very low and I’ll get lightheaded when I stand up. This is true when not eating carbs generally, but fasting (understandably) makes it worse.

I was actually 100/70 at my Doctor’s last week, but that’s not quite low enough for it to affect me.

(Justin Jordan) #39

Fasted today.

As per the usual for me, the difficulty is mental, not physical. No real hunger to speak of, but I just want to eat. I didn’t, but still.

(back and doublin' down) #40

That’s a win!

I ended at 65 hrs yesterday lunch. Ate at a deficit yesterday, felt good to be able to have more control. Aiming for a slight deficit today and then fast tomorrow. Busy day, travel to meetings, town’s light parade and fireworks in the evening, plenty to stay occupied and away from the kitchen!