Decanoic acid?


(Bob M) #1

Have to admit: I don’t think I’ve heard much about decanoic acid.

Can’t find an actual study or any other information, though…

Did find this, which is an interesting read:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jnc.12646


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #2

Makes perfect sense. Why tell people to change the way they eat, when you could sell them a pill?


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #3

More good stuff about keto! MCT oils contain lots of decanoic/capric/decylic acid (C10).

But, but… “The Ketogenic diet (KD) is an effective treatment with regards to treating pharmaco‐resistant epilepsy. However, there are difficulties around compliance and tolerability”. I gave up pretzels. That was tough. :hot_face:


(Bob M) #4

I know, maybe I have to rethink MCT oils. My problem is the “generic” MCT oils and I don’t seem to get along.

I can handle this, but it’s all C8:

I can handle this, but it’s expensive and C8 (mainly):

The other MCT oils, I threw away after giving them a go. And I’ve tried 4+ times with the “regular” MCT oils…


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #5

@ctviggen I use what’s called ‘Liquid Coconut Cooking Oil’ (Jaga brand here in Canada). I think the MCT oils that are designated ‘liquid cooking oils’ have more C10 and even some C12 than the more hard core MCT Oils. I use it daily with zero problems. Maybe the issues you have with them would be resolved using an oil with a broader fat comp.


(Bob M) #6

Thanks, I think we have that. I’ll check tonight.


(Central Florida Bob ) #7

How’s your gall bladder? All of these put an extra fat load in your digestion. You need bile to break them down. Not sure if that’s what you mean by not being able to handle the MCT oils, though.

I tried Brain Octane oil when I was LCHF but not fully keto. I had intense pains in the middle of my abdomen, right below where the ribs come together in the center of the chest. Did some reading and found it was not uncommon and the advise was to take smaller amounts for a while. I stopped after that first (expensive) bottle. I was OK with MCT oil, not octane.

About 18 months later, I had the pains come back on their own and ended up having my gall bladder out but I always thought that experience with the Brain Octane was the first warning sign.


#8

I wish I could get some C7 or even C9. Odd chain fatty acids are great at raising the FADH:NADH ratio.


(Bob M) #9

@CFLBob I have digestion issues, is how I’d characterize it. Not sure whether that’s bile or whatnot. Listened to a podcast where they interviewed someone who said as we age we lose the ability to digest well, such as certain enzymes. Went to look at his products, and they were quite expensive. Plus, it seems if you start taking these, you don’t stop. It’s the whole “take a supplement and your body ceases making it or reduces the output of the supplement” debacle.

But I can handle the Brain Octane just fine. Though I’m not sure exactly what the benefit is for any of these MCT oils… I didn’t get much ketone rise and also didn’t seem mentally sharper. Not much benefit for me.

Though I’m always up for another n=1 test, if I can afford it. :grinning:

@SporkyDonkey I did not know that. I did see someone on Twitter wondering about fats with odd chain lengths, but I never delved into it.


(Central Florida Bob ) #10

I didn’t notice any mental effects or really anything at all either (besides the gut pain), and since it was Before Keto, I wasn’t measuring ketones and hardly ever measuring sugar. Not doing anything noticeable is pretty much the case for every supplement I’ve ever taken. Maybe one or two have done something I could trace.

I was watching some videos by Dr. Nadir Ali, and he talks a few times about reduction in our stomach acid as we age. I was hoping that meant my chronic heartburn would go away, but not so far.

Again, likewise. :smiley:


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #11

The ketogenic diet for treating epilepsy is extremely high in fat and deficient in protein, which is where the compliance and tolerability issues come in.


#12

How do they deal with muscle loss if protein is deficient?


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #13

Not well. The epileptic ketogenic diet is responsible for stunting the growth of a number of children, which is why there is an idea floating around that all keto diets are bad for kids.


(Ethan) #14

They often extrapolate to say bad for adults due as catabolic due to the stunted growth in kids and the studies showing muscle breakdown when initially switching from a carb-based diet to a fat-based diet.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #15

What irks me is that there are actually data to show that a lower-fat, higher-protein version of the epileptic ketogenic diet can work as well to prevent seizures, with less damage to the child’s growth.

I wish they knew whether it’s the actual fatty acids that help, or the increased level of ketones in the brain.


(Bob M) #16

You also have to watch to see what “high fat” means. Often, the studies were so afraid of saturated fat they used high PUFA fats like soybean oil. Nothing like chugging soybean oil to make you sick.

@CFLBob Do you notice any effects if you fast or eat higher fat (both of which can cause higher ketones)? I’ve been doing this so long, that I can’t tell a benefit to higher ketones. But I also only get higher ketones if I pack a lot of fat into meals (even then, it’s not a clear higher fat = higher ketones) or fast multiple day.


(Central Florida Bob ) #17

@ctviggen I think you mean while taking the Brain Octane or MCT oil? That was about six months before I went fully keto, so around winter of '14, early 15 (I think). At that point I’d been slowly lowering carbs since about '97, when I went on the Zone diet, so I was lower carb than SAD, but still probably around 20 grams of carb per meal, and 60/day. I didn’t measure ketones back then and while I had a blood sugar meter, I’d mostly do periodic experiments.

Is that what you meant?


(Bob M) #18

Not really. Some people seem to have better results (mentally) with higher ketones. So, if MCT oils cause higher ketones, this could cause better results for those people.

I don’t happen to be one of those people. For me, higher ketones don’t mean better mood or more energy or anything I can tell. The only way I know I have high ketones is if I test them.

I was wondering if you’re the same way.

I did take exogenous ketones for a bottle. I did get a “rush” from those, but they also made me jittery and I ended up not liking them. Oddly, nothing happened to my ketones, either.


(Central Florida Bob ) #19

OK.

I’m like you in that I don’t really notice any effect of ketone levels. I haven’t run blood ketone strips in a few years, switching over to one of those El-Cheapo AT6000 breathalyzers. I can see variations from things I’ve eaten and a higher fat meal or my keto ice cream will usually raise the ketone levels, but I’ve never felt smarter or more energetic or anything like that.

I’ve been saying that even with no gall bladder I can eat anything I want but it seems that may not stretch to really anything. My wife made a very high fat ground beef dish with both cream cheese and heavy cream in it, and that caused quite a bit of gastric distress. That or I just ate too much of it. Either way it seems some of the fat went through undigested.


(Bob M) #20

That’s a tough one. Was it the fat, the dairy, the amount, the combination? I will occasionally have distress, then try to figure out what caused it, and often come up empty. I do know that just meat doesn’t cause me anything. Add things will sometimes cause issues, but not all the time. It’s tough to analyze.