Dealing With Loss


(KM) #1

I read a few different threads today and saw a common theme. Truly, permanently shifting from traditional eating to a keto or perhaps especially carnivore WOE contains loss. It’s said that nothing tastes as good as healthy feels, and I agree, and I love my meats, and I’m not advocating for changing the choice, but sometimes I think we ignore the places where this lifestyle contains some losses that, perhaps, we need to process. I need to admit that the choice I’ve made contains some loss.

What are the losses I see? Well, I changed from someone who loved to eat in restaurants and try new things to “that person” who is not open to all the interesting options and creativity of other people’s food ideas and foreign cuisines, who wants a steak and doesn’t want to hear about anything else. Changing my identity like that, and potentially changing how other people identify me / approve of me, was not a comfortable process.

Restaurant eating was one of the few things my husband and I shared, with me usually curtailing my interest in novel cuisine for his food anxiety. Now I’m the one with the rigid rules (which aren’t the same as his), making it much more difficult to enjoy this activity together.

Along the same lines, I also used to love foreign traveling, that was also part of my self-definition and it basically revolved around food as a centerpiece of the experiences. Now it makes me uneasy and sometimes outright sad - not only am I not going to experience the joys of new cuisine, one of my big things, I’m anxious about being able to find anything I can eat.

Carnivore eating is Easy. But it’s made me somewhat resentful about my “job” - which I never signed up for in the first place! - of all the shopping and cooking and basic catering to someone else’s complex and completely different food preferences. It’s made me Aware of how much fawning and mommy-ing I’m expected to do in the name of someone else’s meals, now that it ought to be unnecessary because I don’t eat that way. I’m currently handling that with a lot of processed food meals for my spouse, because he actually prefers those foods, but that doesn’t feel good to me at all.

Much like an addict may miss their drug of choice, while I don’t have actual cravings for the old foods, I miss … the feeling of satisfying the itch. The ability to self soothe with food, or just add a pinch of sunshine to my day with a treat food. I used to have that as a fallback position when I felt cruddy, and now it doesn’t work. I don’t know if my point is clear here, it’s not that “oh I wish I could eat a pound of cookies!” It’s “oh, I wish I had an easy go-to that works.”

Do you feel losses you need to acknowledge with your preferred WOE?


#2

Thank you for your post and I can 100% relate to all of it but in particular above. Family meal times are becoming issues as I have to think constantly what to make for my husband that I could also enjoy. I also buy more processed foods knowing that is not exactly the best option. I watch him eat his foods and then his deserts. I think the loss is real but I made a conscious choice for healthier life and longevity. I often worry about my husband’s food choices and wish he could try my way of eating. I worry what is happening to his health. Especially now I became aware of my son’s fatty liver. I want to shout to them and make them see what is happening to their health. I’m not saying I’m perfect I do miss it sometimes and I’m weak at times and fall of the wagon but continue trying. At the moment I know I have tendencies to be addict. I use to smoke and it took me years to stop smoking. I know I can’t even have one cigarette as I’m terrified I would start all over. I know food is not the same but I feel it’s easy for me to make wrong choices because I’m all or nothing person.


(Joey) #3

@kib1 Beautifully expressed.

All change (for better or worse) entails loss of what is no longer the case, in exchange of course for what is new. I don’t mean to minimize such loss, just to note that what once was and is no more is inherently lost.

FWIW, I would suggest you consider whether you are necessarily responsible for feeding your husband? Is he an invalid… and you are his primary caregiver? If so, he’s lucky to have you. If not, well, he’s taking advantage of you.

For him to expect you to handle and prepare food to his liking - especially when it is something you refrain from eating for your own better health - says a lot about the kind of man he isn’t.

If you want to encourage him to eat as you do, then offer to make enough to share. Otherwise, he can prepare his own meals - and go grocery shopping, too.

[I make virtually all the meals in our home as an inducement for my wife to eat healthfully. When she goes off the range, that’s on her time - with ingredients she went shopping for. This arrangement seems to work wonders around our place.]

Food for thought. :vulcan_salute:


#4

I completely agree with this and think you did a beautiful job articulating it. :heart: What I feel a loss over is the connection we make with others. A lot of that connection happens around food. Was that orchestrated in the past 50-70 years by industries to pad their pockets with more money? Possibly. Historically feasts have always been at the center of social celebrations, but was it at every intersection of every single social interaction the way it is today? Or was there something more meaningful than food there before?

We love to gush and ooooh and ahhh over experiencing the taste of something. And we love to feel accepted wholly for who we are and what we like. But now today I am an outcast. I see the hesitation and then the “mental social distancing” going on in people’s eyes with me. It makes me sad to not share the joy I am feeling with others because they threw up a wall between me and them. I also lost encouragement and camaraderie for my life. That’s why this month I showed up here on all yer doorsteps once again after not interacting for a year. I’m hungry for acceptance and understanding and encouragement. I’m hungry for sharing the beauty of my new life with others. I can’t even feel acceptance and encouragement at the gym because of misguided opinions about my fasting and my diet.

There IS a lot of loss. That kind of loss is what keeps most people away from things that otherwise might be amazing for them, like faith. They fear if they have to give up too much normalcy and too much political correctness then it’s not worth it. In reality what they reject leads to a life that is not worth it. Many times the best road to be on is the loneliest road. That’s why I love it here so much. It’s like coming home, where you can always be loved and understood, and not feared or disregarded or made to look foolish.


#5

This saddens my heart. I took a risk asking my family to support me wholly under my roof. They could have made it hell for me, but I was blessed with adherence to my diet unless they pay for something with their own money. (In which they politely keep it out of my face.) But it’s a frightful thing to go out on a limb and ask for that kind of love knowing you might not get it, and then what would that mean? Many people would rather not take that risk of rejection or dismissiveness.

I completely agree with @SomeGuy response. He also articulated everything perfectly. Shame on anyone that doesn’t put your health and happiness ahead of their own after you have done exactly that for them. But that’s the world we live in today. :confused: Too much narcissism and not enough sacrifice for others.

Try to follow Joey’s advice. Lay down some loving but fair household rules. In the meantime I’ll say a prayer that you get the love and total support in your own home at the very least. It’s the only place I get mine, but it’s enough.


(Geoffrey) #6

From my perspective I see it as freedom not loss. The chains that bound me to food have been removed.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #7

This is a good perspective, but not everyone arrives at it, unfortunately.

As a wise man I once knew put it, our choices may be wonderful–chicken, steak, or pork–and we may love the choice we pick, but there is still grief for the other options. That seems to be how people are built. For addicts and alcoholics to give up their drug of choice entails a similar grief for loss. It can be frustrating to realise that the only real choice is “No.” However, once the person realises that the No is where their freedom lies, the No becomes liberating, instead of a deprivation. But it takes time for most people to get there.


#8

No but I am not that committed. If I want to eat something, I eat it.
I have no social life, I do have a high-carber SO and yes, cooking and baking for him makes things a tad more difficult (not nearly as much when he cooks though… I never mix meat with vegs but he does and I may get torn there!) but I do like challenges and I can go off if I really, really want. It’s not always an okay option, like in the next 2 weeks (if I can’t do a few weeks of carnivore starting tomorrow, I will be highly displeased with myself… but I know I theoretically can do it so I will be right…) but I am healthy enough to go off a lot and feel pretty good. As long as I don’t overeat epically at the same time, that only feels great on carnivore.

It would bother me if my SO ate very processed things. But he eats the food we make, almost exclusively from simple ingredients we are okay with. We are both health-conscious and seem to have a default woe that is good for us.

Safisfying the itch… That can be a problem. I have a part that I call my rebellious inner self. I am usually not in that mode but when it happens, I change and want something I don’t normally want and it’s irresistible. I feel restricted while normally I don’t as carnivore food tastes and feels best for me. Yes, a bite of something else can be nice here and there but when I am in that rebellious mode, that’s urgent, more serious and usually not so good for me. I don’\t get sick and I don’t have a choice so I itch the urge but I would love to lose that confusing state. Or make it less frequent, at least.

Food can’t sooth me and I do the latter with carnivore food, usually (but I want my hours of actual sunshine too). But ask me after 2 weeks without fruits, maybe I will say something different … Though I did that once and didn’t miss my fruits… I need a longer time for that.

I NEED not to feel I had to sacrifice anything. I am bad with compromises and sacrifices. So I only go as far as I still am in my hedonistic comfort zone. I do train sometimes but that’s fun. A little push is okay, forcefulness and lack of flexibility isn’t my style.

I do feel lucky. I am healthy enough to handle some plant carbs here and there. I always loved my animal food, meat is newer though as I eat very little, often none for many months for decades. But meat is tasty and useful and I am glad I don’t need to spend a lot of money and time on vegs now… (I only tried out carnivore when I lost my interest in most vegs. How it did happen, I have no idea. It was surreal for many months, I was such a huge veggie lover that I couldn’t stick to keto for more than 7 weeks because my 40-45g net carbs a day allowed a very small amount of vegs and I needed more. And now I don’t want them even on my off days. Some happens, a pickle or a sorrel leaf is even desired by me sometimes but that’s it.)

So I am lucky but I totally understand it can be very tough if one must choose health and lose things in the process. Probably all of us have hardships and challenges but some has actual great losses.

My hedonism works in a way, at least regarding food that I can’t feel restricted or having losses. It would bother me horribly. This is so strong that I suppose it would be very hard for me to be in a situation where I really wouldn’t like the woe I really need. I would change my taste and viewpoint, anything but not enjoying my woe. It’s just a hypothesis and I couldn’t get used to just any diet, of course (low-fat is my room 101 but high-carb isn’t good either at this point) but I think this is the case. I actually trained myself out of habits, tastes I have found very unfortunate. Like sweet drinks and not liking leaner meats. I still only like lean pork and liver and maybe quark but it’s a big win for me.
But maybe I am just lucky that my tastes and healthy food met well enough. Not completely but I can smooth it out eventually. Still, my very deep desire to enjoy my food and have it healthy too motivates me to change and that’s precious.

As we both changed our woe and then I went further, I had easier and harder times. The worst was when I did vegetarian keto (no veggie dishes except some very weak - I mean, mostly water - soup I liked but he didn’t eat) and he did vegetarian high-carb. Sometimes I felt we have no common ground! I started to cook separate dishes back then.
It’s WAY better now as we both eat meat (he doesn’t do it every day but it’s still a good option at least once or twice a week), he just needs some simple side dishes. We both love eggs too…
With relative visits it’s similar, carnivore is way easier than vegetarian… (If I was an Indian, it probably wouldn’t be the case but well, I am a Hungarian…)
And anyway, my own woe allows super simple dishes, almost no work! Cooking some more elaborated, almost vegless vegetarian carnivore food for me and something else for him, that was too much sometimes, it’s nothing like that now.
But I am glad we are only 2 persons, I somewhat like cooking (I am just lazy… especially since carnivore as carni food is perfect without much work. but I still like baking even if it’s much more complicated) and we even have common ground. Oh and my SO cooks in the weekend and may eat that food for 4-5 days so I barely need to cook anything for him. He makes his own breakfasts and most of his desserts. I have it really easy.

My problem is that I love to eat with him. His workday lunch is at 3pm so it’s very hard for me to have my first meal later than that. It may or may not be a problem though I do think it’s a too early time for me, I would have it better if I ate just 1-2 hours later.
But food wise it’s fine, we both eat our own food and don’t want the other person’s. (Except maybe fruits on my part. It’s my number one potencial difficulty since carnivore. It wasn’t a problem on mere keto. I don’t need, usually don’t want but I definitely LOVE fruits. And they are there. ALL the time. My SO is a big fruit lover. Me too but he actually eats them all the time. I don’t feel it as loss as I always eat some if I truly desire some and it’s not often but I need to be determined to skip several days as I don’t see the occasional tiny fruit eating as a clearly bad idea.)

Around food but the connection isn’t about food, at least in my family. (My family is the only interaction I have nowadays.) We have a family Christmas dinner at my SO’s Mom and it’s most definitely not about the food. I don’t even like that food much, she cooks great but I prefer the usual food there, not the Christmas one. Last time my SO’s brother and his betrothed came only for talk, changing gifts and they didn’t even had any food. We did that with more distant relatives before. I don’t see why the food is important. We all can eat whatever we want and can… I can talk with the others just the same either way. Maybe it’s differences in our families but I never really understood the problem. If one is determined, I often lacked that but when I had it, I ate my own food. I even bring desserts for Christmas dinner (as part of my tiny Christmas gift, my SO’s Mom has diabetes but she still bakes with sugar and I bring some nice keto treat she loves, it’s a remake of a supermarket treat that lost the marzipan part since then, they replaced it with something cheaper but I make proper marzipan just a way more almond-y one than normal as no one in my family like the original sweetness).
It’s a bit funny that I rarely eat such sweet, carby treats despite being pretty healthy while people with diabetes eat so much carbs but we are different and not everyone can go easily as far as I did at my first big jump… And I came a long way since then (despite my lack of discipline. I like my low-carb food). My health-consciousness is pretty high too, I don’t see that in people often, I don’t understand why.

No, people got around and interacted around the fire while/before/after eating since they had fire and cooked food on it I am pretty sure. It’s human. Joy (to be able to eat), relaxation, merrymaking, interaction of a very social species…
Oh I see you thought about that too… I do think food was in the center of most non-official human interactions and most longer official too… We need to eat so often, we like to do it, we can show off there…

Really? It’s such an anime thing to me. Or food blog thing. But I eat with my SO and he barely can tell me if he LIKES what I cooked, it’s a bit frustrating sometimes. But if he eats it, it must be edible and I just try to depend on my own judgement (I typically still taste my new creations. I have very few new carby creations and most of them happens on very off days so it doesn’t interfere with my carnivore plans, thankfully).
Well enjoying food is nice, I am a hedonist with big emphasis on food, I just dislike the overexaggerated bliss or the need to tell it’s oh so awesome. Well I do that to my SO’s Mom but she makes the absolute best soups ever, I can’t resist there…
But if it’s appreciating food, taste is only the most important thing (except when it’s the look), not the whole thing. I can enjoy a food without eating it, it’s a skill :wink:

Oh, I am sorry for your true loss :frowning: But if it’s worth it, what can you do? Merely continuing what you do. Sometimes we must choose (quite often, actually).

I often hate political correctness (my country is different in that from the US, for example, anyway) but I can’t imagine what it has to do with my chosen woe. No one has much to do with that, it’s my business. I may have it easy now but I was a vegetarian for very many years and people didn’t accept it (except part of my family, they were great. well Mom cooked vegetarian food 5-6 days of the week, it would be a bit odd from her… but my Aunt couldn’t handle it at all so visits were a bit tense. I was totally unrepentant and stubborn though) so I experienced what it is like to have some “abnormal” diet (and one would thing ovo-lacto vegetarianism is pretty normal… well, it didn’t seem so. almost no one was ready for that, not even restaurants). And while I can go off carni/keto/low-carb any time, a vegetarian can’t. It probably both helped and made it a tiny bit more challenging.
(I still was a tad flexible, I did eat food cooked with meat when I was starving and that was the only option in that whole area. It was the middle of the forest, I was cold and tired too. That happened once. I starved a bit first, I had principles. But even more common sense and hedonism :stuck_out_tongue: )

I can relate tremendously. Maybe I got into carnivore because the carni threads on this forum were such warm nests… And the people very accepting and mostly quite lovely. While my vegetarian, too carby keto just didn’t work so well. I just couldn’t resist. And how good I didn’t.

I am very pleased with the support from my family. My SO doesn’t tell me how to eat. Just like I doesn’t tell him how to eat (as he doesn’t do stupid things. we would have problems then, I need him in very good health in the next several decades). He even refrains from making irresistible carbier food on my planned carni times if possible even though I should be able to resist if it’s that important for me… :smiley: But I have my limits and he is fine with some plant-based food I don’t want anyway. He needs to eat all the veggie dishes I never make but he wants at some point so it happens on weekends. (It works quite well as long as he doesn’t grab our tiny occasional ruminant meat and mix it with as much beetroot as the beef… That’s painful. I don’t like sweet meat dishes. But he loves that one so of course he makes it, I wouldn’t want it any other way except it would be nice if he wouldn’t love it I suppose… But we can’t do anything with our tastes. Except I do train it to some extent. This case is a problem because an off day can’t solve it, I don’t like that food but want the beef. Of course I take some of the beef before that atrocity happens to it but I can’t take much… My hedonist heart can’t handle this situation well. I must be so spoiled eating wise and yep, I suppose I am.)

By the way, it’s very handy to have a high-carber who eats carbier things I don’t want so there is that. We have so much fruit… I wouldn’t want them to rot, maybe we could bring it to someone to make booze from it, that is a huge thing in this country of alcoholics and hospitality… But it still would feel not ideal. And we couldn’t drink it all.

That is definitely a big part for me too. It was the clearest when I went low-carb. I lost absolutely nothing, just won, it was amazing! Keto was more challenging and carnivore was easier than mere keto but I can’t eat my tiny fruits there and it’s normally fine but still, FRUITS :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:
But it’s still mostly freedom especially that carnivore made my relationship with food much healthier. Keto did something but the carbs still interfered.

What I have now is okay-ish. It requires some more work. Normally I am kind of strict (for someone like me) and free and I don’t miss anything, it’s great. And sometimes I go off and enjoy myself. Or not enjoy but compulsions are powerful, that’s bad. Whatever, that’s very rare.
I can handle the off days and I don’t need to ever resist temptation. It’s a pretty good deal for me.
I do have struggles but probably the smaller part is about non-carni items, most of them is about timing and the amount of food (protein and fat macro).


(KM) #9

I appreciate this! Some years ago I offered to make boeuf bourguignon for a group of friends (we usually ordered out), and asked for preferences. One guy shamefacedly admitted that hard as he tried, he just hated mushrooms. I laughed and said NP, I’ll just put them on the side. He was Astonished that I could, would do that for him. It made me pause for a long, long instant that he was so appreciative and grateful for my flexibility. Fortunately for my marriage, he’s gay. :laughing:

. . . maybe what I’m mourning a loss of more than anything is the last of my individuality. Food’s the one place I made a stand for my identity and now I’m disassembling that of my own volition. Damn science.


(KM) #10

My belief is that there is an “enough point” for almost everything. It’s individual, but it’s out there. This Enough Point quest started as a financial journey - how little is enough to have the life you want? It gradually morphed to a question about everything. And the way I usually answer it is diving as deep into the elimination phase as I can, and then coming back to some center that works for me. The hard part of carnivore is acknowledging that something that feels like a good center point might still be sub-optimal from a health standpoint, because we’ve been so brainwashed to think that so many things are harmless or even beneficial. (in other words, if you go down to beef and water, maybe that’s the best place to stay, regardless of what your personal preference might be.) That grates a bit!


(KM) #11

I absolutely feel this. Lol. Thanksgiving, my formerly-vegan niece and her fiance and I were talking. He’s a chef so now she’s an omnivore again. They told me, wide eyed, that there are some people who actually Only eat meat. Ermm … I mean we all love each other and it was a funny moment, but smiling and saying, “you mean like me?” was awkward and it make me feel very much that I was drawing a line in the sand that maybe I didn’t want to be drawing.


(Joey) #12

Perhaps time to redefine your boundaries?

No doubt you were put on this planet for a larger purpose than feeding your husband (…with foods you don’t even enjoy cooking).

Not trying to start trouble here. On the contrary, just suggesting a way to put an end to it. :man_shrugging:


(KM) #13

Oh, I think there may be an end to something. :imp:

Seriously, I’m working through that. I do love him. I really do, and I think he tries hard, but his MO is to avoid ever discussing anything, so I’m going to have to find another way of addressing my needs. I don’t recognize myself anymore and I spend a lot of time resentful and exhausted, questioning why someone feels a need to tell me how to tie my shoelaces. Is it cognitive impairment? Is it MY cognitive impairment??? Will a diet of 100% rib eye steaks answer the question??


(KM) #14

I can actually agree with this.

The chain that I don’t appreciate … well, the WOE I’m choosing has a lot of social baggage I would not choose. I mean, I get the stereotype. A “carnivore” is a good ol’ boy. A conservative man over-focused on his masculinity, a health-ignoring, social anchronism who refuses to branch out and consider anything other than drinking a lot of bourbon, smoking cigars, disregarding the environment or the plight of less fortunate people, and joyfully shouting grunt, grunt, me Tarzan you Jane, protesting much too much over the sanctity of Manliness and the distastefulness of exploring anything else. Boss Hawg was probably a carnivore.

I know, THIS IS NOT YOU. I literally do believe that, nothing you’ve ever posted makes me think this caricature is a definition of you .It is probably not any of us. But it’s still a brush we get painted with that some of us laugh off because fine, who cares, it’s actually a good stereotype to have applied that makes us a tacit part of the group, and some of us (ok, ME) wind up feeling like we’ve been thrown in a mix-master because everything about our identity other than eating cows is the complete opposite. I’m basically an uber liberal feminist individualistic perhaps socialist or even communist environmentalist sexually complex idealistic intellectual seeker of truth … who is signaling something incomprehensible to the average bear because I happen to have a conviction to eat almost nothing but steak, almost every day. It’s sort of like … I’m not a Guy, but I do this thing … so I’m set on a shelf because who knows what to do with me. I’m no longer displaying the tribal feather.

As a comparison, if you will, try to imagine that you’d discovered that the ideal diet was mostly lettuce, whole grain donuts and grapefruit. And then telling all and sundry about how you were still the same person with the same values and no less masculine, just eating better. (your nearest and dearest would say truth, truth … and everyone else, that whole tacitly welcoming group, would suddenly say hey, Geezy’s gone queer, steer clear.)


(Joey) #15

Yup. :wink:


(KM) #16

:laughing: Justification for my social isolation after all!!


(Alec) #17

I absolutely have experienced loss:

  1. Croissants
  2. Roast potatoes
  3. Cheesecake (especially the biscuit base, I mean the sugar!)
  4. Chardonnay
  5. Walkers cheese and onion crisps and a pint of bitter
  6. Belgian chocolate
  7. My mother’s recipe chocolate cake
  8. Chicken bhuna, rice, onion bhaji and naan bread
  9. Gravy
  10. Chicken pie with the crust

But in return for losing all these lovely things, I have also lost:

  1. 100lbs of fat
  2. 22 minutes off my parkrun (5k) time
  3. Exercise induced asthma
  4. Gingivitis
  5. Skin tags
  6. Rough skin on my knuckles
  7. Mood swings
  8. A lot of fat boy clothing
  9. 10 inches off my waist
  10. A lot of ignorance about metabolic health

And my estimate is that I have gained (or will gain) an additional decade of healthy life. Some prices are worth paying.


(E P) #18

This.

This Easter, I didn’t have a literal mouth-watering response to the cadamom-orange smells of the hot cross buns I made for my family or the candy as I loaded up the kids’ eggs. It just smelled nice! Contrast with last year, when I made keto hot cross buns and then ate most of the batch before Easter morning and gave myself a stomach-ache and guilt. Today, I ate till full but, without spices or sweeteners, my food was kind of boring. Yay, I didn’t overeat or eat anything off my plan.

But…a feast day without a feast? I do miss that excitement over fun food!

Also, the personality change (you described it so well, @kib1), the loss of restaurant dates, the loss of eating out of the same pot as the family, the social anxiety. I’m a Christian and I feel left out of the communion bread every week, although it does always remind me to look forward to being healed and sharing that feast in Heaven. Oh and traveling, of which food is such a part. I’ve heard of people packing steaks and an air fryer in their checked luggage, haha!

On the other (swollen, noduled) hand, I was so sick with RA before, the extreme fatigue and painful hands were causing much bigger losses and personality changes. I’m almost symptom free now and my hands healed. I can’t go on restaurant dates, but we can do picnics, hikes, and go dancing! My husband doesn’t mind more steaks either :grinning:


(Geoffrey) #19

There was a time when I could have easily been painted with that brush and it wouldn’t have been too far off. I am a Texan and considered a redneck and I don’t deny that stereotype if that’s how people want to see me that’s their choice. Judging by my lifestyle they may be justified because I raise my own animals for food. I hunt and kill animals for food. I rodeoed and cowboyed back in the day. I was an infantry soldier as a young man. Worked as a bouncer in bars for 7 years and now ride a Harley and belong to a club. I can see where people could easily judge me by my actions. Now add carnivore to the list and yeah, they would probably expect me to just grunt.
But then they meet me and find out that I’m pretty decent sort. All of my rough living wore down the rough edges and now I’m smooth and polished. I couldn’t have gotten where I am now if I hadn’t gone through what I did before.

Oh for sure but I don’t think they’d say it to my face. :laughing:


(KM) #20

:grin:

Thank you for the :heart: , after I posted I felt like that could have been taken wrong. I guess what I was trying to get out was just that my WOE is SO far off from that of my tribe. There aren’t a lot of flesh and blood people in my life, we moved not long ago, and as I look around for some like-minded friends, the people I meet seem to fall into two categories … the Boss Hawgs who think (hope) I share a lot of those carnivore stereotypes and are disappointed that I don’t, and the vegan morality police who are shocked and appalled that I eat animals. Sooo, to stop ranting and wrap it up, that choosing carnivore feels like a loss of the social welcome of like minded people that I always took for granted.