Cyrus Khambatta PhD High Carb Low Fat advocate

(Rob) #21

This is a discussion about the video version of this hairless vegetable…

(What The Fast?!) #22

I disagree with this. I know a lot of people who do macros tracking (IIFYM - If It Fits Your Macros) and it works well for them. A lot of body builders, fitness competitors, etc use this and it is often high carb.

I tried IIFYM and it didn’t work for me (for weight loss), but then again I’ve been keto for a year with no loss, so I’m a bad example. High carb/lower fat does work for lots of people.

(Sandi) #23

My husband and I have been happily following a Keto diet for some months. It’s been very successful for us, and we plan to stay on it. The website that led us to it is Diet Doctor.

I watch lots of information on diabetes, especially out of concern for family members. I watched this 2 hour video [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enIvfC985U8 ], with Cyrus and Robbie Barbaro, on the Rich Roll podcast. I was initially horrified when they began discussing their fruit diet, but as I listened. I decided that they had a good grasp of the science, and it seems it must be successful for the people to work with them. Unless they are lying to us, it appears to work well for them.

I agree that Cyrus and Robbie were easily and completely dismissive of Keto diets for diabetics, but then, it goes against everything that they have come to believe. I did not think they were ugly about it.

One item they presented especially gives me pause - I looked up how to make an laboratory animal insulin resistant, and one puts them on a diet of fat, as Cyrus said. Why is high fat not an issue for humans, then?

But the main reason I am posting this: I am puzzled. Can they eat this diet for years and stay in good health? It would seem that they would not have enough protein to stay well. I’m curious to hear others opinion of the health of this diet.

If I ever become diabetic, this would be my last choice for a dietary approach. I truly cannot imagine it.

I’m impressed at the level of control that both have over their diabetes. Kudos to them.

(Bunny) #24

This is very interesting, I’m going to look at this deeper at the link below and try to figure it out?

Retrospective Evaluation of an Online Diabetes Health Coaching Program: A Pilot Study

Study is pay-walled but I bet it has to do with eating more dietary monounsaturated fats (burn that as fuel constantly and you live longer; longevity) and calorie restriction, portion sizing, eating window timing (fasting) thus it does not matter what kind of carb your eating. Some where in those variables is the how?

…Going deeper and will update

#25

I don’t know anything about these folks but I can probably give some insight into your question quoted here. Take a close look at what the mice were actually eating. Usually studies that use the words “high fat” means that there’s lots of fat in the context of a fair number of carbs, and the fat is usually a lousy source of fat. (I remember one study in which the poor critters were given sugar, canola oil and some small amount of protein and they were compared to another group given MORE canola oil. Not surprisingly, the second group fared even worse that the first one!). Sugar+fat is a bad combination for mice and humans alike.

So great that Keto is working well for you and your husband!

(Pete Stec) #26

Yup - tried it last year, and since then (11 months) I live it. I have Diabetes T1.5 and my insulin injections have dropped from 35 units total per day to 21 - 25 units total per day and I no longer have a “little gut” around my mid-section. I eat only fruit for breakfast (that sucks 5 units bolus) and then a huge salad with about 12 different ingredients and a low salt broth as dressing along with apple cider vinegar. A typical supper is a baked potato (or hashbrowns in a sandwich press or baked “fries” with sliced cukes and tomatos, etc.
I eat Keto deserts (though MasteringDiabetes says that’s a no-no) but my logic along with science and even religion (the Bible tells us God made humans originally to eat green and colorful things that grow from dirt) tells me that human bodies were made for predominantly raw, plant-based foods, not foods that have to be killed and then skinned and baked (notice how we don’t find raw, freshly-killed meat appetizing like a dog or cat might?) Why is that? Perhaps we’re made to eat green stuff that grows from the earth???
Best of luck my friends!

(Pete Stec) #27

There is TONS of protein (way more than I need) in the Master Diabetes plan. One small cup of beans has more protein than a human needs. Also, have you ever seen the physique of a gorilla? Gorillas don’t eat any meat and they get more than enough protein. It’s a HUGE myth that vegetarians or vegans don’t get enough protein. All cows get their protein from grass, and it’s the kind of protein that human physiology metabolizes since our intestine is long (kind of like a cow) and not short (like a wolf).
Blessings my friend!
Pete Stec
Jordan, Ontario Canada
Mastering Diabetes follower for a year (and very likely til I die! :slight_smile:

(Pete Stec) #28

They’re not! Your body needs them and nature (or God if you’re religious) made carbs as the primary energy source for your body (by default). It’s only after you change the microbiome in your gut that you can “train” your body to use fat and protein as an energy source. Here’s the kicker: There are dozens of “blue zones” around the world where cultures and people groups live long and healthy lives while eating nothing but fruits/vegetables/starchy veg (sweet potato, etc.) but ZERO examples of cultures who thrive long term on a keto diet of high fat, low carb.
Things that make you go hmmmmm…
cheers,
Pete

(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #29

Do you have a link to a study? These high fat laboratory studies usually involve vegetable and seed oils, not the animal sourced fats that we evolved to eat. Credit to Madeleine for mentioning this also.

There are essential proteins … When not eaten in sufficient amount, we die.

There are essential fats ( fatty acids ). When not eaten in sufficient amount, we die.

There are no essential carbohydrates… Without them, well, nothing happens as long as the other two are there in sufficent amounts.

(Bunny) #30

Also plant sterols, so we still get fat vegetarian or keto!

There is also one problem; B-12 which would require human feces (but not too much) for fertilizer to grow plants with enough B-12?

Unlike gorillas humans don’t produce enough phytanic acid which requires meat from animal protein sources?

Without phytanic acid you cannot digest plant proteins and fats properly?

(Bunny) #31

Hmmmm?

“… Contrary to popular belief, eating fish is not the best way to get your essential fats. Most fats can be synthesized by our own bodies and are not necessary to have in our diet. However, there are a few unsaturated fats that we cannot make which we have to get from food called “essential” fats. Humans and animals cannot create double bonds after the third and sixth carbon on the chain, but plants can. Only plants can synthesize omega-3 (alpha-linolenic acid) and omega-6 fats (linoleic acid) which are therefore referred to as “essential” fatty acids. Fish store the Omega-3 fats from the algae they consume. Fish themselves do not produce omega-3 fatty acids. Your healthiest sources of Essential Fatty Acids can be found in a variety of plant foods. …” …More

So…Saturated fats (stearic acid) are created by our own body (from carbs) and no need to eat it?

(Pete Stec) #32

Hey, I LOVE meat. I’m a 50-year old dude who STILL has a BBQ on his back deck, and I also run a website called “pizzaovenreview.com” and I don’t eat either pizza or meat. Without spending my whole day arguing, here’s a REALLY good rule of thumb.
Whatever nutrients you can’t get in huge quantities from greens (ie. B12) are easy to get with a high quality supplement. But all those arguments (ie. not enough phytanic acid, B12, etc.) are very small issues to correct while you’re successfully dealing with the BIG issues like extending your life, decreasing your odds of getting all cancers, heart disease etc (which you’re addressing with a raw plant based diet). In fact, everyone I know on keto or paleo diets (I know over a dozen and I used to be one) is opposed to plants for one reason - THEY LOVE THEIR MEAT! No one eats Keto or Paleo because they feel they should, but they hate the flavors. No way, they’re just looking for reasons to NOT give up their precious burgers and steaks, etc. Using common sense even the Keto eaters I know realize raw vegetables are beneficial while meat causes more harm than good (for whatever little good meat actually gives us).

(Bunny) #33

I’m not here to argue either I’m just a curious person and like to speculate as to why people think eating only one source of food is necessary (to get essential nutrients) and do this Orwellian cognitive dissonance (double think) thing with food?

I think in terms of natural ancestral diet and avoiding man-made-supplements like vitamins (I think that is the real reason people get fat, obese diabetic etc. synthetic vitamins use different biological pathways than the natural organic) but actually learned how to eat raw meat from a vegetarian and how to spice it, to cook it a little.

I agree, the phytanic acid is not a huge argument but it is just one of those things that make you wonder when people try to compare themselves to primates such as gorillas who have microbiome and intestinal tract so much different from a human. A gorillas microbiome needs produce the phytanic acid to digest all those plants and a humans only recourse is animal meat.

I just woke-up straight out of my sleep to write this so I’m not fully conscious yet…lol

(Pete Stec) #34

No worries! Ancestrally, I believe we were made by God or mother nature to process vegetation and not meat (that’s why our intestinal tract is long). Also, as far as microbiome, mine is exactly like a gorilla … now! That is a factor you can change by the food you eat. Do you ever wonder why, when you start eating all vegetarian, you’ll have lots of gas for about a week or maybe more!? If you haven’t experienced that, then there is a virtually 100% chance you will if you start eating just veg. The gas is a result of your microbiome changing (that’s the good bacteria that lines your digestive system) to a completely different variety that properly digests vegetation. I no longer have gas but I have a lot more energy, and I can see my abs (hasn’t happened since 1989 - seriously!).

I’m just having a really hard time arguing with the science that show NO societies or cultures who eat keto or paleo long term and have a healthy and long life, while the blue zones around the world show lots of cultures that eat raw vegetables primarily and have very long and healthy lives. There is also no such thing in the world in countries that actually have food, as “protein deficiency”. No one ever is diagnosed in North America with protein deficiency including vegans. There’s just too much soluble protein in a vegetarian diet to allow for that. Whether you believe in God or just “mother nature”, - in either case, they meant for humans to eat green stuff that grows from dirt and not animal flesh. The science is too plentiful and obvious in my research anyway!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #35

Yes, this is the problem with most such studies. The animals are put on a dreadful diet that is anything but low-carb (if you read the study, it should say what lab chow they used, and you can then go to the manufacturer’s Web site and get the ingredients; such product seem to be uniformly nasty), so no wonder the results are impressively bad. Dr. Malcolm Kendrick has some very droll but spot-on things to say about such studies.

To be fair, part of the problem is that it’s very hard to get mice and rats into ketosis. Dogs don’t get into ketosis until very late in starvation, as I understand things, and for mice and rats, ketosis requires a very stringent diet and supplementation with something—possibly choline or acetylcholine, I don’t remember for sure.

Because I keep pet rats and wanted to put them on a ketogenic diet, I had an e-mail exchange with Peter from the Hyperlipid blog (Petro Dobromylskij, D.M.V.) about this, because he is a veterinarian and researcher with some experience in this area. Unfortunately, I learned just how difficult it is to put a rat into ketosis and had to give up on the idea.

The research into the ketogenic diet in human beings actually shows quite a number of benefits, when it is compared with other diets.

(Sandi) #36

Madeline, thank you for your informative reply. That’s good information. It helps me think about the website.

It blows my mind that their Very High Carb approach works, but it does seem to — at least until they have major health issues, when they might need more protein than they can get from plants.

#37

Personally I’ve stopped trying to make sense of all success cases out there. I think there are so many considerations. Here are just a few:

  • we have a lot of variation in terms of genetics, current lifestyle, health history, hormonal profiles, and no two people will react exactly the same way to a particular way of eating;

  • folks who move to a plant-based approach (or, for that matter, to a well-formulated ketogenic diet) almost always do so from a standard diet full of either a lot of processed foods or a diet based on some foods (like grains) that cause issues for many people. So you’ll generally see a huge improvement in health that is mistakenly attributed to the new diet (where it should be attributed to the elimination of certain foods or habits);

  • high carb and VERY low fat is quite different from high carb + moderate fat (I can’t really speak to this but there are some threads on here about this);

  • some health issues from different ways of eating don’t show up for a long time. I’m pretty sure I could come up with a vegan plan on which many people would thrive or at least do fine in the short term, but I would expect issues in energy, fertility, and body composition to show up at some point for most people.

(Sandi) #38

Again- Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Good points.

#39

Interesting that your forum name is “Ecofool”.
I have reversed my type 2 diabetes and insulin resistance using conventional keto, no harm.

No reason to mess with it.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #40

The Kempner Rice Diet does indeed work (as long as fat intake is kept extremely low), but it’s very difficult for a lot of people to manage, and a number of Dr. Kempner’s patients begged him to whip them into compliance—and by “whip,” I mean it literally, believe it or not.

The problem with that diet is that even once you resolve your diabetes it is very hard to return to a normal diet without triggering diabetes all over again, though some people have apparently managed it.

My understanding is that keto is a more manageable option for most people.