Cycling and energy


(John) #1

I used to ride a lot, I was a bike cop for a while and rode 20 miles or so a day, 5 days a week. Later I got into mountain biking and would go pretty hard for 5-8 miles, but basically nothing in 15 years.

So, after 3 knee surgeries now and it looking like a 4th one coming before long, I decided to start biking again as running is just too much. I got a MTB but am in nowhere near the shape I need for the big trails around here so I started by riding paved trails.
First ride was fasted other than BPC, I rode a section until I decided I was done and it ended up being 14 miles of pretty continuous pedaling with about a half mile of 90% effort hill. Was fine when I got home except very hungry, I ate about 500 calories of keto food, then dinner a few hours later. Really surprised that I never even got sore.
Next ride had a bit of elevation change but only one brutal hill about 1/4 mile long. BPC only prior to ride. This time I did 19 miles (tired of a MTB on paved surfaces at this point!) and felt great other than a feeling a little reminiscent of my hypoglycemia days before keto. Quite a bit more hungry this time, but after drinking a ton of electrolytes I ended up eating about the same as the previous ride. 500 cal extra for the day while the ride supposedly used up 1,200.
After a 2 day break I did the 3rd ride, same as the second but with eating 400 calories of pecans to see how it affected energy and hunger. Out of the gate I was really high energy, doing about 3 mph more on average than the second ride. At the halfway point I felt much more exhausted, and while I did each half of the ride in about the same amount of time on the second ride, this one was much slower and I lost all of the speed I had gained in the first half. Then 3 really odd things.

  1. On the way back my legs, not sure how to describe, they weren’t cramping per se, but they felt like they were numb and needed oil, if I stopped pedaling and coast it seemed I could feel something rush in and lubricate everything and pedaling was easy again for 5 minutes or so and then had to do it again.
  2. As soon as I could see this tall building in the distance, which is where I started, I immediately started thinking about food, specifically french fries and ice cream. I couldn’t stop, mint chocolate chip or cookie dough? Reese’s cup maybe, mmmm oreo would be good. That continued for the last 10 mintues, I couldn’t think of anything else.
  3. I went home and was so hungry, much more than I had been on previous rides. I had some nuts, a protein shake with HWC and an atkins bar just to try to quell the sweet tooth. I felt like I was about to fall over asleep, I could barely keep my eyes open. I took my BG and it was 61, I am usually in the 80’s and that number is usually where I was with my hypoglycemia stuff. I ate peanut butter on a slice of white bread and everything seemed to even out.

I drink a lot on my rides, I have a camelbak not just the little bottles so I am drinking a ton. I am only about 15-20% bf if that helps. I have read about Targeted Keto where you take in carbs before a workout but before I did that I figured I would ask here. Any ideas? Maybe just too much too fast?


(Tom Seest) #2

How long have you been eating a Ketogenic diet? You may have given that information, but I missed it.


(John) #3

Sorry, I did not. 7 months now, usually <10 in a day. Dropped about 60 pounds and all my numbers look good now, just haven’t done much exercise over the past…decade.


(Tom Seest) #4

Before you give up and start cycling or targeting carbs, I tried a few things. Just for the record, I don’t have a problem with targeting carbs before and during a ride. However, the length / duration of the ride doesn’t seem to warrant that type of attention.

So, I’d try the following:

  1. Supplement with VESPA before the ride. (http://www.vespapower.com) Many of their endurance athletes target carbs before a ride or run, but I’m guessing that you just need to continue adapting.
  2. I’d work MCT into your schedule and up the amount the night before. My guess is that you are adapted but just not far enough along yet. I’ve done fasted rides after 3 or 4 days of fasting without the difficulty you are describing. Adding in MCT’s should bring you more mental clarity anyway, and add easy access to fuel.
  3. Watch the electrolytes. I know you are aware of this, but any slight lack of this will cause you to feel more weak.

And finally; don’t worry about the carbs during a ride. When I first started, I’d take Almond butter along and have a couple of spoonfuls before and during a ride. For sure, those carbs get burnt off during the activity as energy.

You’re there man. Great work. At this point, it’s only a function of time in my opinion.


(John) #5

Thanks for the ideas. I do MCT oil from time to time, usually in the morning though it has never helped my mental clarity (not sure if anything can) but it still has a pretty strong… bowel effect. I will shoot for some the night before, I would think day of could be dangerous. Carbs on board sounds like a smart plan, i’m not nearly as scared of carbs as I used to be.


(ianrobo) #6

Some good points for discussion

  1. You say you are drinking a lot, I suspect that in fact you are drinking far too much ad washing the salts out. As a general rule then you should only be drinking 500-750ml of fluid every two hours.

  2. You are bonking, I think you are not fat adapted and still carbs are primary source of energy.

Difficult to say much else without figures etc but just get some blood ketone measurements and see what they tell you before and after a ride.

For reference I am fully fat adapted and ride up to 5 hours fasted with no issues. Forget carbs for rides if a social rider, do not need them.


#7

I am new to this and am going through a similar experience with running. However, I do have a theory. There are hundreds of times that I have gone into and out of ketosis, usually as a means of making a weigh in. It is easy to go through keto flu and then hang out for a few days after that. Many think that that is becoming fat adapted. It is not hard if you do not exercise. In fact, for years, I have told others to not exercise and only focus on diet if they ask me about losing weight. Most everyone thinks that I am crazy.

Being “fat adapted” for training - not just leisurely strolling or biking, but hard, intense exercise to produce a training effect - is an entirely different animal than being fat adapted for day-to-day living. I have never done it myself in the past because it is very hard, but I am trying it now and am about a month into it. It is indeed very hard.

In the pre-keto days we could simply eat some pasta the night before and have some juice in the morning then head out for intense endurance exercise and drink sugary electrolytes along the way. Our bodies certainly had to be trained to be able to handle very heavy loads, but if we have never had that load in ketosis then there is a whole other aspect to the training that we must endure. Our bodies must become adapted to burning fat AND supplying energy at higher than normal rates.


(John) #8

Good point, I am sedentary fat adapted. I wonder how the pathways are different for someone doing little to know exercise vs someone doing a lot? It would seem until we got more efficient our cholesterol would be through the roof transporting fat around everywhere.


(John) #9

I think after 7 months of <20 carbs I am adapted… i’m burning something.

The water could very well be, my HR is around 140 with spikes to the 160 for brief sprints over the 2 hours, I drink a liter before I leave and 1 liter on the bike.


(ianrobo) #10

I would refer you to what Steve Phinney says and increase your salt intake especially for Liver functions.

Also I would query why you think you need carbs at all unless you are in Z4/5 of heart rate.

Go on a two hour ride in your endurance HR zone and see how you feel the, fasted, no food with you just water.


(Mark Landry) #11

Have you been on the bike lately?
My suggestion - since you went a decade or so without exercise - would be to not worry about how fast you’re riding and just take a leisurely approach. Push too hard and recovery will be harder. Water, electrolytes, and a gentle pace and you should be fine.


(John) #12

You are correct, just bad fitness. I am riding 50-75 miles a week and doing well. 40 miles seems to be my max right now, I can get there easily but after that seems much harder.


(ianrobo) #13

Interesting here

over 6mths cadence UP, Speed the Same and Power DOWN

So I have become much more aerobically fit and yes lost power but spn more, this is positive as I will now concentrate in the winter on power etc


#14

That is kind of my plan. Work on getting cadence up and lose more weight before winter. Build my aerobic base as much as possible now and then concentrate on increasing power over the winter. I will follow some training plan or may even get a coach.


(ianrobo) #15

A coach is good but only one who understands MAF etc pick well, winter should be about endurance, aerobic with the power


(John) #16

I’ve been thinking about climbing and sprinting in the winter, shorter time out, can do all the endurance I want in the warm months.


(Tom Seest) #17

I recommend this Keto based coaching team http://www.invictuscycling.com/


#18

Thanks. Will keep them in mind.


(ianrobo) #19

ah I would argue that is the wrong way round though as the base has to be built first and then the rest on top. Especially on MAF/Keto plans