Criticism of Virta's good results, coming from PCRM

virtahealth
vegan
pcrm
#41

This appeals to my confirmation bias. But it does not clearly explain the mechanism of generation of intracellular lipid from blood triglycerides and how those circulating triglycerides are a function of dietary carbohydrate intake.

Dr Barnard’s proposed mechanism of insulin resistance due to increased fat storage in muscle, as an example of ectopic body fat storage, relies on the physiology of dietary fat storage in a high insulin state, as most commonly happens when higher dietary carbohydrate enter the body at the same time as higher dietary fats.

I like that you took us back to encourage us to read the letter(s) @ajbennett Jack.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #42

Indigestible starches don’t feed anything. They’re indigestible. Maybe they contribute water soluble vitamins and minerals trapped in their interstitial cellulose lattice. But those nutrients are not carbs. β-hydroxybutyrate maintains gut health in ketosis far better than starches either ‘indegestible’ or ‘resistant’ out of ketosis.

(Jack Bennett) #43

@FrankoBear thanks … I hadn’t read the letter or rebuttal until now, and I recalled McDougall from my old vegetarian days, so it was interesting to read some material from that perspective.

I find it’s useful to ask the question: “what if my assumptions and beliefs are totally wrong, and the contrary view is completely right?” Helps us refine our own understanding of things.

Dr Barnard’s proposed mechanism of insulin resistance due to increased fat storage in muscle, as an example of ectopic body fat storage, relies on the physiology of dietary fat storage in a high insulin state

Exactly my impression. Insofar as keto would help lower glycemia and lower average insulin levels and peak insulin levels, you would expect it to reverse fatty liver, pancreas, muscle, and so forth. (And it’s certainly known to reverse fatty liver quite rapidly.)

#44

I think this presumption, or hypothesis, most clearly explains the motivation for the letter.

But I’d also observe is that Virta is a business threat to whole food plant based advocates who seek financial healthcare market share.

Once the motivation moves from claiming truth seeking in science to protecting a business racket that’s when ethics are discarded faster than a groom’s night shirt.

(Karen) #45

I don’t think I’m there yet but I like the possibility of that in the future

(Karen) #46

Interesting posts

#47

There are lots of of WOE which can be Ketogenic. Just for the record guys. I think most of you know you can be vegan and keto all at the same time.
And yes of course the corporations and the people promoting the vegan WOE are threatened. For some reason everyone wants the world eating like they do.
The finial answer is eat the way which makes you heathy. The rest doesn’t matter.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #48

Sure you can be vegan and keto at the same time. But both they are very different to each other. One cannot say that vegan is keto. For example, carnivores are keto, but carnivores are the diametrically opposite to vegans.

(Jack Bennett) #49

Vegan keto sounds like it would be an extreme elimination diet: lots of coconut, olive, and avocado fats. It would be very hard to reach protein leverage without also getting lots of carbs that would knock you out of ketosis.

I suspect the most convenient vegan keto approach would involve a lot of processed foods: protein powder, extracted fats. And not a whole lot else… maybe salads and nuts for variety.

The thing is, keto is not explicitly opposed to vegan - they are just very different goals, with a small area of overlap that we could call “vegan keto”.

But ultra-low-fat vegan plans like McDougall are pretty much the reverse of keto though - the macro ratios they recommend are the exact opposite of keto.

(Jack Bennett) #50

It’s funny to see how he’s getting wrecked on Twitter in the replies to this questionable tweet about eggs (OMG! EGGS RAISE CHOLESTEROL … what year is this, 1955? Still concerned about dietary cholesterol and total serum cholesterol?)

(bulkbiker) #51

He talks such shit… much like Greger and his “one egg is as harmful as 5 cigarettes” trash…

(Full Metal KETO AF) #52

Simple take, Dr. Barnard’s dietary advice is much like the traditional 70’s food pyramid, best to go with the opposite flipping the information upside down. He’s beating a dead horse. As far as Ketogenic Vegan…nonsense. There’s not a source of protein that’s plant based and carb free. Even in Dr. Will Cole’s book “Ketotarian” which I bought for a friend who wanted to try plant based KETO, he recommended seafood and eggs, that’s a big part of the recipes and diet plan. Going 100% KETO Vegan seems like an pipe dream for so many reasons. Eat your meat. :cut_of_meat: :cowboy_hat_face:

(Karen) #53

This is generally what vegan keto dieter’s can eat
Foods to eat on a vegan keto diet include:

  • Coconut products: Full-fat coconut milk, coconut cream, unsweetened coconut.
  • Oils: Olive oil, nut oil, coconut oil, MCT oil, avocado oil.
  • Nuts and seeds: Almonds, Brazil nuts, walnuts, hemp seeds, chia seeds, macadamia nuts, pumpkin seeds.
  • Nut and seed butter: Peanut butter, almond butter, sunflower butter, cashew butter.
  • Non-starchy vegetables: Leafy greens, Brussels sprouts, zucchini, broccoli, cauliflower, peppers, mushrooms.
  • Vegan protein sources: Full-fat tofu, tempeh.
  • Vegan full-fat “dairy”: Coconut yogurt, vegan butter, cashew cheese, vegan cream cheese.
  • Avocados: Whole avocados, guacamole.
  • Berries: Blueberries, blackberries, raspberries and strawberries can be enjoyed in moderation.
  • Condiments: Nutritional yeast, fresh herbs, lemon juice, salt, pepper, spices.
(Jack Bennett) #54

I think you’re almost entirely right - I would say there’s no natural source. If you want to go crazy on refined protein powder, you can probably find a few brands that are plant-based and have no added sugar. But if you want to eat whole foods, as opposed to manufactured dietary supplements, you’re probably out of luck.

It seems to me like McDougall and the doctors who recommend similar diets (Esselstyn, Ornish, etc) offer something like the regular guidelines on steroids: cut fat to 10% instead of 30%, don’t just eat “heart healthy whole grains” and vegetables, eat only those foods; don’t just cut back on lean meats, eat none.

On the whole, these guys are less “vegan” and more “ultra-low-fat”, because some of them do “allow” skim milk and non-fat yogurt because people love those foods so much (<-sarcasm).

#55

Maybe berating one. But as a vegan, unlikely to be near a dead horse unless filming it for a shock and awe segment in a documentary.

#56

Joe Rogan likes hemp protein.

(Bob M) #57

I ate like this for decades. Oats or other hot cereal for bfast, pasta for lunch, beans and brown rice for dinner, rice cakes for “snacks”. Only very lean meats, skim milk, fat free “cheese”. It’s not a good way to eat. And caused low HDL and (I’m sure but never looked at) high trigs. My HDL was never above 40, no matter how much I exercised. With low carb/keto, it’s somewhere above 50, near 55. Depends on the day.

Based on what I know now, I can’t see anyone recommending this very low fat diet as being “heart healthy”. It’s the opposite of that.

(Jack Bennett) #58

I got into a brief and actually pleasant debate with a vegan activist on Twitter.

He said his macros were 70/15/15 carb/protein/fat. I’m surprised that it would be sustainable for years (he’s done it for a decade I think). I concede that my reaction is similar to carb addicts saying “I could never give up bread and pasta”. I don’t think I’d find the McDougall-Fuhrman-Esselstyn approach to be sustainable. I’ve tried it for short periods and it felt pretty miserable and non palatable.

(As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I was able to be vegan for a couple of years, by eating lots of fat like avocado, almond, cashew, coconut, olive, etc. I was still hungry all the time though.)

I think he posted his Testosterone results as a challenge to Dr Shawn Baker; there was an attached doctor note on elevated triglycerides… perhaps not a surprise to us.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #59

It must have been Dr. Bernard’s lecture that I saw, when I was first researching the ketogenic diet. I stopped watching when he blamed diabetes on eating meat. I believe I also added to the hell that is the YouTube comments section . . . :smirk:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #60

Another possible explanation is that they are gaining enough lean tissue to offest weight lost in the form of fat. This is why keeping track of our clothing size may be even more important than watching the scale.