Is a vegan or vegetarian diet where a person gets (e.g.) 400g/d of carb ketogenic?
I can imagine their levels might be in weak nutritional ketosis (0.3-0.5 mmol/L) in the morning, but it sort of stretches the usual definition of the term “ketogenic diet”, doesn’t it?
Yes, remember the difference between a simple carbohydrate and a complex carbohydrate.
Dr. Bernard evades the simple carbohydrate argument by merely mentioning it? That is precisely what his view is based on, in reality it is ketogenic or a ketogenic diet and has nothing to do with only being a plant based diet.
A vegetarian is simply trying to avoid animal products but if he were to say “this is a ketogenic diet” he loses his power and political grip hold in the ‘responsible medicine community’ because he is trying to save the animals I’m guessing?
That Dr. Bernard is a highly educated sly fox so let’s hope the only person he is fooling is himself?
"Both diets are correct (they cut out the highly refined sugars and processed foods) if you don’t get involved in the cry baby emotional politics?
Vegan/Vegetarian, Meat Only Diets, High Fat/Low Fat, Low Carb/Moderate Complex Carbohydrate intake are all ketogenic; any one who says it isn’t has some serious comprehension issues?"
Maybe I have serious comprehension issues. Can you please explain me where in the definition of a vegan diet the exclusion of sugars and processed foods is stated? Can you please explain me how a vegan eating bread and pasta all the time is ketogenic?
I agree as individuals. As social enclaves on the internet however, and with rather different underpinnings of ‘why’ the eating plan, there are some differences.
Though of course, it is always best to err on the side of realizing that we are all more alike than we are different.
Yes I can:
Low sugar diet is a ketogenic diet, does NOT matter if your eating pasta or bread even fruit, when you eat too much of that then you exceeded what is required to place the body into ketosis.
High fat/low fat/low carb can also be ketogenic but high fat is not required to put the body into ketosis.
Anybody tells you any different needs to go back to college because they probably got there degree out of a Cracker Jack Box?
Since you cannot eat too much of any one calorie, it would more wise to eat nutrient dense foods?
All carbs are sugar. The carbs in ‘pasta’ and ‘bread’ are just chains of glucose molecules. Eating pasta and bread just requires one extra step to break apart the chains of glucose molecules before dumping them into the blood stream. When you are not eating carbs for fuel you must eat fat for fuel. So a ketogenic diet, which by definition means very low/no carb, must include enough fat to fuel energy needs. So it can not be ‘low fat’. Or you will suffer ‘rabbit starvation’.
Again here is the bottom line it is when you eat too much sugar.
Rabbit starvation comes from eating just Rabbits?
That is not going to happen with a variety foods, in calories, in your diet?
How hard is that to figure out?
If all your eating is rabbit?
Why do simple carbs (sugars) stop ketosis but complex carbs (starches) allow it to persist? Starch becomes glucose sooner or later.
Conventional keto wisdom tends to look at carbs in general - is that too simplified?
Any diet high in protein, low in fat and devoid of carbohydrates, will result in not enough energy for your body to function properly. ‘Rabbit starvation’ is a form of acute, severe (and often fatal) malnutrition.
Hunting and gathering people were never immune to starvation prior to their involvement in state welfare systems. Among most subarctic and arctic hunting peoples such as the Innu (Montagnais-Naskapi) of Labrador and Québec, the Gwich’in of the Northwest and the Copper Inuit, starvation was fairly common. In times of hardship, when game such as caribou, moose or bear was unobtainable, much greater reliance was put on smaller animals, eg, rabbits and hares. Rabbits in particular offer very lean meat, and “rabbit starvation” refers to the almost total lack of fat in such a diet. At the end of a long winter, when even larger game animals were lean, the same fate might occur. An individual could ingest many pounds of meat at frequent intervals but derive little nutrition.
Correct. The only difference is how long it takes for the sugar (specific carb) to be converted to glucose and dumped into the blood stream. Chains of glucose molecules forming so-called ‘complex’ carbs have to be broken down into their individual glucose molecules first. No other difference.
I guess there comes a time to re-educate our fellow Ketonaut’s in the fundamental aspects of what they think they know or have been told vs. reality?
If your not getting enough nutrient dense carbohydrates or calories then your talking starvation.
Your going to get dietary fat/oil/sterols from plants irregardless of who ever says that to the contrary, the human body also produces it’s own fat, cholesterol and trigs endogenously from complex and simple carbohydrates.
Excessive dietary digestible starch, blood glucose, sugar molecules and all that jazz etc. can be oxidized, it is when you have excess or more than your individual metabolism can handle and your degree of metabolic fitness but it is those simple carbohydrates or excessive complex carbohydrates that are creating the intramyocellular and hepatic fatty deposits, that we can’t really see other than with a microscopic autopsy on skeletal muscle and the liver and possibly the pancreas, that is another factor on top of our knowledge of visceral fat?
This is basic stuff. Carbohydrates are sugar molecules, period. If you don’t know this, look it up. They are fuel. There is no essential carbohydrate simply because as fuel they can be replaced by fat. There is no ‘nutrient dense’ carbohydrate because carbohydrates are nothing but sugar. Carbohydrates contain calories. They do not contain other nutrients.
There are ‘nutrient dense’ foods that are composed of carbs, proteins and fats in various proportions. Some foods that happen to be nutirent dense, for example, bok choy, also contain mostly carbs and not much protein and fat. In the case of bok choy most of the carbs (about 95%) are totally indigestible cellulose. The nutrients are not in the carbs! So do not conflate nutrients with carbs. Carbs are sugar, that’s all. Vitamins, minerals and other essential nutrients are different.
I don’t see anyone having a lack of fat in there diet after a “long winter” in our modern world unless your an isolated culture from the entire world?
Those are very distant assumptions or ideas and are not in anyway close to being sound or scientific in any way shape or form?
Not anything I would associate with common sense, reality, science or sanity for that matter?
You could try taking some college courses online to learn more?
You got me there Mark. That is where my point falls apart. Humans are complex critters.
I can understand your points @Arbre. Can they be assimilated to Keto? That is a brilliant question the more I think on it. I’ve read a few people who went direct from SAD to carnivore and saying how wonderful they felt but totally oblivious to the physiology of nutritional ketosis. The same for strict will power driven CICOs feeling great at rare stages in their failed weight loss attempts, again, totally oblivious to the ketogenic high. Even those that replace food with synthetic shakes and bars, as the fake food processors would have us all eating. I wonder if, maybe, we all could momentarily gather under the ketotic umbrella, many not knowing they achieved ketosis?
You are correct about the subspecies of vegan that demonstrate your point.
When we dig into the nuances of bioindividuality and ethics we find the commonality of people thinking before they are eating. That was the thought I was presenting.
My yoga guru, JP Sears, who was a vegan, but then was caught on video eating fish had to make a very sad social media confession and mia culpa. That’s when I realised that veganism is very hard work.
I’m confused now for sure.
Macronutrients are not micronutrients.
Magnesium is not protein or carb or fat, for example.
It simply might also be in a food which contains those things.
Help me out, then. Name a ‘nutrient dense’ carbohydrate, please.
Maybe not as nutrient dense under that definition:
But as you very well-know it would be undigestible starches or resistant starch that feeds butyrate (a ketone body) producing bacteria in the gut lumen making for a thick mucosal barrier to protect you from bad foods and pathogens in your environment.
