Criticism of Virta's good results, coming from PCRM

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(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #26

All carbs are sugar. The carbs in ‘pasta’ and ‘bread’ are just chains of glucose molecules. Eating pasta and bread just requires one extra step to break apart the chains of glucose molecules before dumping them into the blood stream. When you are not eating carbs for fuel you must eat fat for fuel. So a ketogenic diet, which by definition means very low/no carb, must include enough fat to fuel energy needs. So it can not be ‘low fat’. Or you will suffer ‘rabbit starvation’.

(Bunny) #27

Again here is the bottom line it is when you eat too much sugar.

Rabbit starvation comes from eating just Rabbits?

That is not going to happen with a variety foods, in calories, in your diet?

How hard is that to figure out?

If all your eating is rabbit?

(Jack Bennett) #28

Why do simple carbs (sugars) stop ketosis but complex carbs (starches) allow it to persist? Starch becomes glucose sooner or later.

Conventional keto wisdom tends to look at carbs in general - is that too simplified?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #29

Any diet high in protein, low in fat and devoid of carbohydrates, will result in not enough energy for your body to function properly. ‘Rabbit starvation’ is a form of acute, severe (and often fatal) malnutrition.

Hunting and gathering people were never immune to starvation prior to their involvement in state welfare systems. Among most subarctic and arctic hunting peoples such as the Innu (Montagnais-Naskapi) of Labrador and Québec, the Gwich’in of the Northwest and the Copper Inuit, starvation was fairly common. In times of hardship, when game such as caribou, moose or bear was unobtainable, much greater reliance was put on smaller animals, eg, rabbits and hares. Rabbits in particular offer very lean meat, and “rabbit starvation” refers to the almost total lack of fat in such a diet. At the end of a long winter, when even larger game animals were lean, the same fate might occur. An individual could ingest many pounds of meat at frequent intervals but derive little nutrition.

Source

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #30

Correct. The only difference is how long it takes for the sugar (specific carb) to be converted to glucose and dumped into the blood stream. Chains of glucose molecules forming so-called ‘complex’ carbs have to be broken down into their individual glucose molecules first. No other difference.

(Bunny) #31

I guess there comes a time to re-educate our fellow Ketonaut’s in the fundamental aspects of what they think they know or have been told vs. reality?

If your not getting enough nutrient dense carbohydrates or calories then your talking starvation.

Your going to get dietary fat/oil/sterols from plants irregardless of who ever says that to the contrary, the human body also produces it’s own fat, cholesterol and trigs endogenously from complex and simple carbohydrates.

Excessive dietary digestible starch, blood glucose, sugar molecules and all that jazz etc. can be oxidized, it is when you have excess or more than your individual metabolism can handle and your degree of metabolic fitness but it is those simple carbohydrates or excessive complex carbohydrates that are creating the intramyocellular and hepatic fatty deposits, that we can’t really see other than with a microscopic autopsy on skeletal muscle and the liver and possibly the pancreas, that is another factor on top of our knowledge of visceral fat?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #32

This is basic stuff. Carbohydrates are sugar molecules, period. If you don’t know this, look it up. They are fuel. There is no essential carbohydrate simply because as fuel they can be replaced by fat. There is no ‘nutrient dense’ carbohydrate because carbohydrates are nothing but sugar. Carbohydrates contain calories. They do not contain other nutrients.

There are ‘nutrient dense’ foods that are composed of carbs, proteins and fats in various proportions. Some foods that happen to be nutirent dense, for example, bok choy, also contain mostly carbs and not much protein and fat. In the case of bok choy most of the carbs (about 95%) are totally indigestible cellulose. The nutrients are not in the carbs! So do not conflate nutrients with carbs. Carbs are sugar, that’s all. Vitamins, minerals and other essential nutrients are different.

(Bunny) #33

I don’t see anyone having a lack of fat in there diet after a “long winter” in our modern world unless your an isolated culture from the entire world?

:joy::slightly_smiling_face::rofl::joy::slightly_smiling_face::rofl::joy:

(Bunny) #34

Those are very distant assumptions or ideas and are not in anyway close to being sound or scientific in any way shape or form?

Not anything I would associate with common sense, reality, science or sanity for that matter?

You could try taking some college courses online to learn more?

#35

You got me there Mark. That is where my point falls apart. Humans are complex critters.

I can understand your points @Arbre. Can they be assimilated to Keto? That is a brilliant question the more I think on it. I’ve read a few people who went direct from SAD to carnivore and saying how wonderful they felt but totally oblivious to the physiology of nutritional ketosis. The same for strict will power driven CICOs feeling great at rare stages in their failed weight loss attempts, again, totally oblivious to the ketogenic high. Even those that replace food with synthetic shakes and bars, as the fake food processors would have us all eating. I wonder if, maybe, we all could momentarily gather under the ketotic umbrella, many not knowing they achieved ketosis?

You are correct about the subspecies of vegan that demonstrate your point.

When we dig into the nuances of bioindividuality and ethics we find the commonality of people thinking before they are eating. That was the thought I was presenting.

My yoga guru, JP Sears, who was a vegan, but then was caught on video eating fish had to make a very sad social media confession and mia culpa. That’s when I realised that veganism is very hard work.

(PJ) #36

I’m confused now for sure.

Macronutrients are not micronutrients.

Magnesium is not protein or carb or fat, for example.

It simply might also be in a food which contains those things.

(Bunny) #37

Magnesium is one of many electrolytes.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #38

Help me out, then. Name a ‘nutrient dense’ carbohydrate, please.

#39

@atomicspacebunny Bunny! You’re here! It’s like turning up to a party :partying_face:

(Bunny) #40

Maybe not as nutrient dense under that definition:

But as you very well-know it would be undigestible starches or resistant starch that feeds butyrate (a ketone body) producing bacteria in the gut lumen making for a thick mucosal barrier to protect you from bad foods and pathogens in your environment.

#41

This appeals to my confirmation bias. But it does not clearly explain the mechanism of generation of intracellular lipid from blood triglycerides and how those circulating triglycerides are a function of dietary carbohydrate intake.

Dr Barnard’s proposed mechanism of insulin resistance due to increased fat storage in muscle, as an example of ectopic body fat storage, relies on the physiology of dietary fat storage in a high insulin state, as most commonly happens when higher dietary carbohydrate enter the body at the same time as higher dietary fats.

I like that you took us back to encourage us to read the letter(s) @ajbennett Jack.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #42

Indigestible starches don’t feed anything. They’re indigestible. Maybe they contribute water soluble vitamins and minerals trapped in their interstitial cellulose lattice. But those nutrients are not carbs. β-hydroxybutyrate maintains gut health in ketosis far better than starches either ‘indegestible’ or ‘resistant’ out of ketosis.

(Jack Bennett) #43

@FrankoBear thanks … I hadn’t read the letter or rebuttal until now, and I recalled McDougall from my old vegetarian days, so it was interesting to read some material from that perspective.

I find it’s useful to ask the question: “what if my assumptions and beliefs are totally wrong, and the contrary view is completely right?” Helps us refine our own understanding of things.

Dr Barnard’s proposed mechanism of insulin resistance due to increased fat storage in muscle, as an example of ectopic body fat storage, relies on the physiology of dietary fat storage in a high insulin state

Exactly my impression. Insofar as keto would help lower glycemia and lower average insulin levels and peak insulin levels, you would expect it to reverse fatty liver, pancreas, muscle, and so forth. (And it’s certainly known to reverse fatty liver quite rapidly.)

#44

I think this presumption, or hypothesis, most clearly explains the motivation for the letter.

But I’d also observe is that Virta is a business threat to whole food plant based advocates who seek financial healthcare market share.

Once the motivation moves from claiming truth seeking in science to protecting a business racket that’s when ethics are discarded faster than a groom’s night shirt.

(Karen) #45

I don’t think I’m there yet but I like the possibility of that in the future