Conflicting info

#1

Been on keto since february, did well, lost weight, felt good but not so now, extreme aching and pain throughout body and then recently have read articles saying meat, dairy and egg consumption is really bad for you, will cause systemic inflammation and cancer…go plant based!
I give up, I just don’t know what to think or eat anymore. I really thought keto/low carb was the answer.

(Allie) #2

And if you look at who wrote those articles or at least the studies they refer to, you’ll see it’s vegan organisations with their own agenda.

Eat whatever suits you, whether it’s meat or veggies, whatever. We all have to find what works for us as individuals rather than letting the often hidden agendas of others mess with our heads and health.

#3

Well my body thinks plant consumption causes problems and meat, dairy and eggs are the absolute best for me so I don’t care about vegan propaganda (well I didn’t listen to it even before I tried carnivore).
Of course you find opposite info about eating, it’s how things are, sadly. Make your own decision…? There are some facts you still can find, there are experiences of so many people… And it’s good to listen to your own body and ask its opinion about its individual case. It works less well if your communication isn’t good or if your body is very sick but it often guides us well.
If I feel bad on high-carb, good on low-carb/keto and very good on carnivore, nearly each and every time and I have pretty much experience about each (less on carnivore but very serious benefits come every time, usually immediately), I couldn’t care less what others say…

Vegetables are very clearly unhealthy for me, I can handle some, I can handle any kind but carbs MESS with my body and mind, always did but now it’s worse as my body knows what it wants and nudges me. First. Then it gets more insistent. I trust my own body, it kept itself pretty healthy all my life, it must know things :slight_smile: Not like I can say no to it, it’s very insistent and powerful :slight_smile:

Nope.

(Marianne) #4

I believe it is the answer, and there are many medical and scientific pioneers who have proven it to be so. I don’t know where you read what you did, but I think it’s propaganda. I think eating a plant based diet is better than eating the Standard American Diet, however, clean, low carb is the answer. I’m sorry that you are experiencing aching and pain. I’m not sure what your plan looks like, but I’d eat clean keto foods and keep the carbs under 20g/day. Good luck; I hope you start to feel better.

(Robin) #5

@Cinders You know, there are many reasons you may be experiencing extreme aching and pain, no matter what “diet” you are one. I doubt it’s related, given that you’ve had a good month and seen progress.

I have read articles that could scare me away from many foods and ways of eating. Usually those “articles” are not actual reports of studies, or they are funded by those who profit from the ads. So I follow what my gut and my health is telling me.

But… if you are truly afraid now, you should follow YOUR instincts.
Either way… I hope you feel better soon and find the path that works for you.

#6

lc/Keto plan and any healthy eating change is a super positive for most :slight_smile: not a darn doubt in my mind on that one :sunny:

sounds more like could you being fighting off a low level Covid issue?
sick in any other way?
could be massive oxalate dumping NOW into like, about month 7 and oxalates dump out of the body ON THEIR timeline, not ours.
add some ‘sneaky’ foods in there now or drinks in any way that seem ‘innocent’ or could be nailing you and showing you? we all change up the eating at some point and learn more about us on what we can ingest thru the cleaner eating we do???

Did ya change eating or overdoing exercise or or or??

agree with Robin above in her post…it isn’t your menu truly doing this TO YOU, (unless you are swaying too far off in any way?? maybe) but you got something ‘extra’ going on that we can kinda ‘guess’ on but can’t. We don’t know your medical background or anything truly about you and your lifestyle but if I were you, I would ‘suffer thru longer’ and let the GOOD healthy eating plan still change me. If alot of aches, take some Ibuprofen or whatever you feel you can take to help symptoms cause I did that. I took whatever OTC pills that helped me while I ‘transitioned’ thru my personal journey. And yea it sucks rocks to ‘feel off’ but as one changes long term the body can do wild things to each of us, on a very personal level.

wishing you the best tho!!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #7

My experience is exactly the opposite of this. On a meat-based ketogenic diet, which includes dairy, my inflammatory markers all dropped into the normal range, my hypertension normalised, and so did my heart rate. My athritis has largely disappeared (especially from my knees and fingers). And this is from eating a large amount of meat, fish, eggs, cheese, and heavy cream.

The vegan/vegetarian movement has its modern roots in the writings of Ellen G. White, Prophetess of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. She believed that meat was bad, because it excited our sexual passions. The Kellogg brothers invented the breakfast cereal industry with her blessing, so as to persuade people to eat something other than bacon, eggs, and steak for breakfast. Seventh-Day Adventists were also the major force behind the American Dieticians’ Association and, more recently, the “lifestyle science” movement. However, it is certainly possible to eat a vegetarian or vegan keto diet. A relaxed vegetarian who is willing to eat dairy, eggs, and the occasional fish should not find it too difficult. Vegan keto requires a great deal of planning, and some supplements, but it can also be done.

For myself, I find the arguments for a plant-based diet to be uncompelling. The environmental issues have been debunked by Peter Ballerstedt, who believes that ruminants may indeed be the only way to save our grasslands and to sequester enough carbon to make a difference in terms of global warming, not to mention feeding the world (there is not enough cropland on the planet for us to all eat vegan).

The moral/ethical argument founders on how many more lives are lost during the various steps of crop farming. The current factory farming methods of raising meat are abominable—everyone except the people involved believes they are inhumane and just plain wrong—but there are ways to raise food animals that are humane, and far, far more beneficial to the land and even to the entire ecosystem.

And lastly, for me, the evidence that we evolved while eating mostly or almost exclusively meat are compelling. Before the fear of fat became a medical dogma, it was believed that carbohydrates were fattening, and the healthiest food was meat. In fact, beef contains all the amino acids we need, and in all the correct proportions. It is the “high-quality reference protein” that underlies the nutrition advice from the government—not that anyone admits that anymore.

Lastly, as one of our members recently posted, the idea that meat causes cancer is “beyond debunked” at this point. The so-called evidence used to justify this wacky notion is skimpy and often actually contradicts the beliefs of the people promoting it. (They clearly haven’t read the studies in any depth.) The well-known cancer researcher Thomas Seyfried believes that all cancers are the result of metabolic damage to cells, damage usually caused by glycation and oxidation from eating too much carbohydrate. Fatty-acid metabolism eliminates glycation and greatly reduces oxidative stress on cells.

So I don’t think you have all that much to worry about. Keep calm, and keto on.

#8

of course it is. it is real science thru the physical body for all and if we eat it, hmmm,.but if ‘we read’ the fake news? ugh LOL
good post PaulL!

(Edith) #9

Hi @Cinders, I was wondering what you’ve been eating since you started your keto journey. Before keto, I used to love to bake and so when I started following the keto diet, I had a lot of fun trying to make keto baked goods. Keto baked goods involve a lot of almond flour. On top of the keto baked goods, I was eating a lot of nuts in general, along with healthy greens including spinach, and berries. It turns out all of those foods were high in oxalates. Build up of oxalic acid in the body and especially the joints can cause aching and joint pain. Is it possible you have really upped your oxalate intake since starting your keto journey?

Another possibility is that your sodium intake is just not enough. Not enough sodium can also cause aches and pains. I tried to give up extra salt a few years ago. Since I hadn’t gotten muscle cramps (which was my usual clue that my sodium intake was too low), I thought I was good and that I no longer needed the extra salt. I have to admit, I don’t remember the timing, maybe a few weeks, but I started getting these pains that traveled around my body and what seemed like tension headaches. It finally dawned on my that maybe I needed to add the salt back into my diet. Sure enough, that cured the travelling pain and headaches.

I’ve been keto for five years now. I don’t need to supplement with as much extra salt as I did when I first started keto, but I still need it. During my initial years, I need an extra 2 teaspoons a day and that was not including what was in my food.

I would try upping your salt intake, first. The worst that can happen is you get a little puffed up from water retention. If that’s the case, you can cut back to a level that works for you. Salt is probably the easiest thing to try.

Edit:
One last thing to consider which I believe was also mentioned above, is to think about something you may be eating now that you didn’t pre-keto. For example: keto can be quite dairy heavy. If you’ve been eating a lot more dairy than usual, dairy might be the culprit. Diary gives me terrible joint pain.

(Laurie) #10

Hi @Cinders . In my case, it’s plant foods that cause pain, but just in my gut. I’m sorry you’re feeling pain all over.

I think we could help you more if you posted what you eat in your version of keto. As has been mentioned, the problem could be oxalates, nuts, or lack of salt (or another nutrient). Or something else.

Could you post your typical intake?

#11

Yes good advice, thankyou!

#12

Thank-you to all of you for the support and encouragement, its just what I needed today. What I had read caught me at at bad moment and made me question what I’ve been doing keto wise, theres always going to be another viewpoint of course.
Im usually quite firm in my convictions and do not fall for propaganda easily!:smiley:
I will def try more salt thank you for that tip.
I do eat clean keto generally, too much veg can bloat me so I’ve cut down on that but I grow my own veg and I buy meat/butter from an organic grass fed source. I do have quite a lot of butter (so yummy) and probably more cheese than before so maybe that could be a culprit.
But I am menopausal so I’m beginning to wonder if its hormonal aches n pains actually…I wasn’t aware it could cause quite so much aching! I also do a lot of physical work as a gardener and cleaner so I use my body a lot…I guess Im not so young anymore!
Best advice ever,…KEPP CALM AND KETO ON! love it.

(Robin) #13

When in doubt, feel free to blame menopause or hormones in general. You have a better than 50% chance of being correct. Glad you are hanging in there. Trust me, keto can make the transition easier. And the other side is awesome.
I would also be adding some collagen… you can search for our convos about how it has helped so many of us older women. Wish I knew at your age.

#14

Thanks, awesome on the other side eh…I like the sound of that! Certain “authorities” would have us believe its the beginning of the end and that HRT is the only option. I have actually just started taking collagen and MSM .

(Joey) #15

Generally workable advice in life when it comes to relationships, career choices, emotions, etc.

SAD-ly, when it comes to eating and nutrition, so much of what we mistake as our “instincts” really just reflect poorly-constructed guidance - often passed down through family beliefs based on bad government dictates.

I would caution skepticism when it comes to one’s personal instincts regarding nutrition in the western world, particularly as to how our metabolisms work.

Better to perform n=1 experimentation and get field-tested facts about yourself. :nerd_face:

#16

Ya, I read an “article” once that said the world was flat… so…

May want to apply some common sense to stuff that! No shortage of great info both here and many other places that aren’t made up.

(Kathy) #17

Just a comment on the “Plant Based”

I popped into a coffee shop one afternoon, to just sit on the sunny patio and take a few moments for myself.

Ordered my coffee, asked for Cream, was told sorry we are a plant based cafe… We only use Soy or Oat milk, I hate soy in coffee! especially a really good coffee!!, So I tried the Oat milk… really tasty asked to see the brand… Checked the carbs 18 for I think it was 1/3 Cup!!!

At least eating Keto you can pronounce pretty much all the ingredients, LOL

(Megan) #18

Hey Cinders, how are you feeling now? Did you discover what was/is behind the extreme aching and pain?

(Allie) #19

Most is sweetened with sugar, I currently use unsweetened oat milk currently which claims to be 5.4g carbs per 100ml which isn’t too bad for the little amount used in coffee.