Coconut Oil lowers (not raises) Ketosis Level

(mike lisanke) #1

I’ve been in Ketosis and experienced in fasting and low-carb/keto eating. That said, I recently started adding what’s describe on nutrient label as 0 carb 0 protein Coconut Oil 100% calories from fat. Doing this has repeatably Lowered my level of Ketosis. Has anyone else experienced similar effect? Can anyone explain?

BTW, I can eat many things with proteins+carbs calories without as big an effect. Interesting?


Have you tried with actual MCT Oil? This refined or unrefined Coconut oil? I’m not a fan of checking ketones as it’s pointless for most but that seems to be something with your oil specifically as MCTs convert directly to ketones. Also keep in mind that if your injesting something that directly converts to ketones you’re faking the numbers anyways, no purpose to waste the test strips at that point. Your “level” of ketosis doesn’t matter. Only that you’re in ketosis to begin with.

(Bob M) #3

How are you measuring ketones?

Regardless, what I’ve found after years of testing is (1) the testing devices themselves are inaccurate and (2) it’s very difficult to test ketone levels, other than to make gross generalizations.

In fact, I don’t take any tests right now, other than morning and evening blood sugar, and those only because I found some strips. I have found that measuring ketones is generally useless.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #4

What specific product are you using?

As for ketones, I agree with @ctviggen testing ketones is not very useful unless you have a medical condition that requires a certain minimal level. It’s quite possible that the fatty acids from the coconut oil get utilized readily enough that your concurrent ketone requirement drops and/or ketones get utilized more efficiently. You might try the MCT test suggested by @lfod14.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #5

Unheard of…something else must be wrong. Could you be living in an alternate universe? Are you sure it isn’t a Twilight Zone episode? :joy::joy::joy:

(Give me bacon, or give me death.) #6

What is your reason for using the coconut oil? If you are using it to cook with, then stop worrying about your ketone levels.

A similar question is what your reason is for measuring your ketone level. The researcher who coined the term “nutritional ketosis,” Dr. Stephen Phinney, says that while a serum β-hydroxybutyrate of 0.1 is somewhat better than 0.5, there is no increase of benefit for levels above 1.0. And even if your measurement is less than 1.0, there is probably no reason to be concerned, either. If you are keeping your carbohydrate intake below 20 g/day and are still breathing in and out, your body is making ketones.

If there is some medical reason you need to maintain a certain ketone reading, then MCT oil or ketone esters may be a better choice than coconut oil.

(mike lisanke) #7

just coconut oil and no idea what level of refinement but its nutrition statement indicates fat only calories and its source Only coconut oil.
why I’m interested in ketosis level is technical… I’m into the biochemistry of ketosis and the effects of eating and even thinking about eating on ketosis levels. I don’t know if you track concepts like cephalic insulin response but I’m concern with such things. at this time, I use a relatively less trusted measurement of ketosis … a alcohol meter adjusted to ketones in my breath… which is probably an appropriate mention for any technical response to my question.

(mike lisanke) #8

I’m testing with several breath meters which I trust with various amount in specific ranges
and I test often under a wide variety of fasted and feasted state

(mike lisanke) #9

I’d rather not get into the weeds on the apparatus… the question is, if the readings were correct, what could be the process… if any!

(mike lisanke) #10

yes, we come here for ridicule. thanks for being here. if I were on twitter, you’d receive one of my special remarks and then never hear from me again! :laughing:

(mike lisanke) #11

rather not get into specifics of why coconut oil except to say it’s little to be a primary fuel supplement for low-calorie days when I don’t want to go multi-day calorie free. Many have tried things like a keto coffee and that’s what I’m doing with it And no, coffee has had no effect by itself on my level of ketosis. BTW, low insulin is only one benefit of fasting, autophagy being the other and the ketone level/insulin level ratio is primary determinant in onset of autophagy (when without supplement).

(Bob M) #12

It’s not going to matter. Really, these devices suck.

Here’s a test of my “home” Keto Mojo versus my “work” Keto Mojo. The 2.4 is from test solution. They both get the same result. I then use the same blood for both meters and the strips that are calibrated to those meters. Notice anything strange?

Another test of two Keto Mojos:

This set of tests compared Keto Mojo (on left) with Precision Xtra (on right):

I have a picture somewhere where I have two Keto Mojos and one Precision Xtra, and they show 0.2 (PX), 0.4 (KM#1) and 0.8 (KM#2).

If you want a gross measure of ketosis, these provide it. If you want exact numbers, good luck.

(Bob M) #13

Oh, I see you’re using breath. I have that (ketonix, first generation) too. It suffices to say that if there is a relationship between blood ketones and breath ketones, it’s a difficult one to ferret out.

Here’s an example where the right-most column is the reading from my Ketonix breath ketone meter. The columns after time are Keto Mojo, Precision Xtra, Ketonix. Note the discordance between blood ketones and breath ketones:

(Bunny) #14

Two things you can measure, glucose and ketones but that still does not tell you where your basal insulin loads at which would be highly erratic individually.

With that said it proves without question diabetes is an insulin problem not a glucose problem?

(Bob M) #15

I think diabetes is both. In fact, I don’t think you can separate the two (and let’s throw in glucagon, too, which no one thinks of).

I’m just saying that for those people who like clear, consistent data and want to test their body to see what happens, you have to have devices that are near 100% accurate. We don’t have those.

For something as complex as ketones, where urine, blood, and breath all measure different ones, you have to understand the relationship between these and what causes them to change. I personally don’t understand those relationships, and testing is not helpful in this regard.

So, for all those people who say, “I did X and my ketones did Y”, I say keep testing. You’ll soon find you did X and your ketones did nothing or did the opposite of Y. And much of that is due to the inaccuracy of these devices.

I only use my meters as gross approximations of what’s going on. Even my blood sugar meter (I forgot I had some test strips and am now using them), I don’t trust it. I’m getting lower morning blood sugar readings now than I have the past 4.5 years. Is that true? Or just the crappy meter? I’m not sure.

(Bunny) #16

Insulin and glucagon regulates the release of both ketones and glucose and when our fat stores are full we become insulin resistant.

This Introduction to physiology book from Duke University is really fascinating and I’m still rolling my sprockets on it…lol

“…Approximately 75% of the islet cells are β cells which produce insulin. Another 20% are α cells that secrete glucagon. The δ cells produce the paracrine, somatostatin (SRIF). Which inhibits both insulin and glucagon secretion. …” …More

Now think of the glucagon to insulin ratios Bikman talks about?

image link

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #17

I suggested two possibilities.

One of the many benefits of fat adaptation is the more efficient synthesis and utilization of ketones, which results in lower amounts floating around in the blood doing not much of anything. It could be in your case that coconut oil simply bumps up efficiency more than other fats.

(Bob M) #18

I think once you get into insulin and glucagon, it’s a never ending rabbit hole, where even the experts, like Bikman, don’t know the answers or the studies haven’t been done to create answers. For instance, the pancreas isn’t the only organ to create insulin.

And we shouldn’t get into “insulin resistance”, since that seems to be one of the most poorly defined terms ever.

Some people think that we should really be using glucagon to keep our blood sugar up, and not insulin to lower blood sugar. The theory is that insulin is really a stop-gap measure when carbs are available, which isn’t a lot of time if you’re in an area with winter. During other times, it’s low blood sugar we (our species) have to be concerned about.

(Bob M) #19

You could be right, particularly if you’re eating fewer calories than you “should” be eating. Then, the fats are there to be used, not converted to ketones.

Also, you’d have to do an analysis of what fats are in coconut oil (which is likely far from MCT oil) and figure out how each of those is processed. MCT oil would be easier to analyze.

This says a little:

But does not have a breakdown of what’s in coconut oil.

Even taking MCT oil, I didn’t notice much of a ketone increase. This is hampered by bad testing equipment (see above) and also MCT oils and I don’t get along. I’ve thrown away 3 bottles of them. The only ones I can handle are the brain octane variety, which are made from C8 (? forget now). Otherwise, they cause me gastrointestinal issues.

And unlike many people, I couldn’t find much benefit to MCT oils, even the C8 variety.

(mike lisanke) #20

Bob, thanks for your charts with device readings and variability. It’s precisely why I wanted to avoid talking about the measurements (suspect) and focus (asking only about the effect – if it could be explained).